Hope Starts With Us: Pride & LGBTQ+ Mental Health

In this episode of NAMI’s podcast, guest host Matt Raymond, NAMI communications director, fills in for NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison Jr. to speak with Rosemary Ketchum (former board member of NAMI Greater Wheeling, WV, and first openly transgender official to be elected in West Virginia) and Frank Grimsley (body-positive, queer content creator, brand collaborator, licensed therapist, school social worker and TV personality, as featured on Netflix’s ‘The Circle’ and ‘How to Get Rich’) in honor of Pride Month about LGBTQ+ mental health. Tune in to hear more about LGBTQ+ creativity, self-care, suicide prevention and policies for support!

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

Episode Audio:

Episode Video:

Featured Guests:

Frank Grimsley

Frank Grimsley is TV Personality and Content Creator located in the DMV area. Frank is the Season 4 winner of popular Netflix reality show “The Circle” and gained praise for his ability to be a “ray of sunshine” despite facing some of life’s toughest battles. Frank also recently appeared on Netflix’s “How To Get Rich” where he shared his personal struggles with finances and how his upbringing has shaped his current relationship with money.

Since Frank’s television debut, he has amassed over 150,000 followers on Instagram and over 30,000 followers on TikTok. His “friends,” as he likes to call his supporters, have helped catapult his brand as a full time creator. Frank has worked with McDonald’s, Giant, Panera Bread and Face Reality Skincare to share his uniquely creative way to create content.

Frank prides himself on being a positive representation in the LGBTQ+ communities as not only an advocate, but a conqueror.

Rosemary Ketchum

is a member of the City Council of Wheeling, West Virginia representing Ward 3, and a former board member of NAMI Greater Wheeling, WV. Ketchum serves as the Community Park Strategist at Grow Ohio Valley supporting the urban development and placemaking efforts of her city. She is also on the board of several organizations including the Friendlier City Project. Ketchum has been a returning guest on MSNBC and has been profiled by several outlets including The Today Show, Time Magazine, and CNN for her work in community organizing and politics.

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Episode Transcript:

[0:00]
[background music]

Frank
Grimsley: [0:01] Nothing else really matters. I just want to be my full
self. I really don’t care what my family thinks anymore. I don’t care what
people from back home think. I just want to be myself, and so every month for
Pride is super special to me now.

Rosemary
Ketchum: [0:13] Pride looks like leadership to me. Seeing other queer,
LGBTQ folks across West Virginia and across the state or across the nation take
on leadership roles, I think, is that next step of empowerment that we’re
after.

Matt
Raymond: [0:28] Welcome to "Hope Starts with Us," a podcast by
NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I’m Matt Raymond, NAMI’s
director of communications, and today I have the privilege of serving as your
guest host for this very special episode, with a community I personally
identify with, about Pride and LGBTQ+ mental health.

[0:48]
We started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. Hope
starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making
information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical
advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories. Hope starts with us breaking
the stigma.

[1:07]
If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and has been
looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us.
Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode with each conversation brings
you into that collective to know you are not alone.

[1:24]
Today, I’m pleased to be joined by former NAMI board member of NAMI, Greater
Wheeling, West Virginia, and the first openly transgender person ever to be
elected in West Virginia to the Wheeling City Council, Rosemary Ketchum.

[1:38]
We have body‑positive, queer content creator, brand collaborator,
licensed therapist, school social worker, and a TV personality you may know
from shows on Netflix like "The Circle" and "How to Get
Rich," Frank Grimsley. We’re talking today in honor of Pride Month and
about LGBTQ+ mental health.

[1:59]
This subject is something that means a lot to me. I am a gay man, I have a gay
brother, and my father is trans, actually came out at the age of 72. We have a
lot of interest in conversations in our family about nature or nurture.

[2:13]
I want to start out by thanking both of you for being here, for taking your
time to join us. Very generous of you. I want to start by just asking each of
you a very open‑ended question, which is what does Pride mean to you and
why is celebrating Pride important for LGBTQ+ mental health? Frank, why don’t
you kick off?

Frank:
[2:33] Wow, I just actually answered this question. Thank you, Matt, for just
being so vulnerable and sharing that. That’s such a beautiful journey. I just
can’t even imagine some of the conversations you all are having.

[2:47]
Pride means to me, it’s bigger than just me. A lot of you may know me from
"The Circle," being the winner of The Circle. After that, I had the
opportunity to be in McDonald’s, a prop right here in DC on the McDonald’s
floor. It was the first time that I had ever posted about my just existence in
the community.

[3:11]
I grew up in a very small town in Alabama. I grew up in the church, so I never
really felt free to be my full self. I knew after I went on TV that the world
was going to see, OK, that’s who that guy is. In that moment, I actually just
was like, oh my God, nothing else matters. I just want to be my full self. I
really don’t care what my family thinks anymore.

[3:36]
I don’t care what people from back home think, I just want to be myself. Every
month for pride is super special to me now because I’ve been living out loud,
but now I’m just living out loud without any care about what anybody thinks. I
post on social media for my family back home to see, they don’t ask me any
questions.

[3:59]
They’re probably already like, we know what’s going on with him. Pride is so
special to me just because I finally, at the age of 30, feel fully free and
fully able to walk in my authentic truth. Just having that ability to do that
is just so freeing and just an amazing journey. I’m grateful.

Matt:
[4:23] Absolutely. We know the power of coming out and just being able to be
who we are with people. I think the more people know LGBTIQ people in their own
lives, the better the acceptance and the openness the conversations can be.

[4:37]
Rosemary, let me ask you the same question, what is pride to you? Why do you
think it’s important for LGBTIQ+ mental health?

Rosemary:
[4:45] Thank you so much, Matt, for sharing your story, and Frank, for sharing
your story. It’s great to meet both of you. I think something that Frank said
really sticks out to me that, I’m also a 30 and pride looks very different. I’m
actually 29, to be very clear, almost 30.

[5:03]
Pride looks very different to me today than it did when I was 20. I think that
carries through your life, what it means to celebrate your identity, what it
means to feel empowered. If I was to answer this question 10 years ago, I would
have a very different answer.

[5:17]
Right now, to celebrate pride, for me, we talk about pride being a party. Pride
is a party. Pride is a protest. When I see folks really living their lives
unapologetically, regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation, I
am really not just inspired by those people, but inspired to help encourage
other people to take those kinds of leadership roles, whether that’s in their
own personal lives or in their profession.

[5:51]
Right now, at 29, pride looks like leadership to me. Seeing other queer LGBTQ
folks across West Virginia and across the state or across the nation take on
leadership roles is really that next step of empowerment that we’re really
after.

Matt:
[6:09] It coincides with the month of pride, but we’ve also seen a lot of
attempts in legislatures, in some policymaker circles, and among advocates on
various sides to attack pride, the entire notion of pride, and to really
demonize the community. Some would say just to eradicate them, even put people
back into the closet.

[6:32]
I wanted to ask what your perspective was on that. How do you think that’s
impacting the community and how does it impact you personally? Frank, let me
start with you on that.

Frank:
[6:44] It’s just so disheartening. To just echo what Rosemary said, pride now
looks way different for me than I was at 20. At some point, when I was probably
maybe 25 to 28, I felt like we were making strides for it. I feel like the
strides that we had started to make are being pulled back from some members of
our community.

[7:11]
One of my favorite advocates is Ts Madison. She’s an amazing transgender woman.
I always just hear her talking about some of the things that they try to do to
that part of our community. She even talks about how as someone in that
community, how she doesn’t feel supported by the other people that are in our
community.

[7:35]
As a Black gay man, it is a large part of my responsibility, too. We not only
need allies outside of our community, we have the allyship within. That’s the biggest
piece that is missing because we’re not only being struck from outside of our
community, we’re striking inside of our community.

[7:55]
It’s very dangerous because at this moment where they’re trying to take us, we
all need to be on the same front, whether we’re Black, White, transgender, non‑binary,
whatever it looks like. We all need to be united because if it came down to it,
they would ship all of us off together. We need to be together.

[8:14]
I just think whatever happens in our community, it impacts us all, whether we
really know it or not. There may be an attack on the transgender community
right now, but it very well could turn into an attack on Black gay men. It
could turn into an attack on lesbian women. We just never know. It’s very sad and
it really concerns me a lot.

Matt:
[8:39] It feels like in a lot of ways that trans issues now are being used as a
proxy. For instance, it seems like society has moved on from same‑sex
marriage as an issue of controversy. Some people are using different issues as
a wedge.

[8:54]
Rosemary, let me ask you the same question because you are a lawmaker. What’s
your view of these various laws and attacks, whether verbal or in terms of
policy? Do you see any reason for optimism?

Rosemary:
[9:12] To quote Taylor Swift, I’ve seen this film before. This is not the first
time that vulnerable communities like the queer community, the Black community,
or immigrant communities have been under attack by a certain, large minority of
people.

[9:29]
Similarly, Frank, in my early 20s when I was a community organizer and
protester, I felt a lot of optimism about where we were, because the
conversations we were having felt really productive. Today, I still feel a lot
of optimism, particularly because I have a very local lens and I’m seeing the
work happen on the ground, but I am frightened by what’s happening.

[9:53]
Social media in particular has really poisoned a generation of Americans into
believing really harmful, dangerous, untrue things about their neighbors. In my
experience, I ran for office. I knocked doors as an open trans person. It
wasn’t a secret. I was elected in arguably the most conservative state in the
nation, we voted for Trump more than any other state.

[10:17]
What that tells me among many other things is that people are far more likely
to trust, to vote, to support a person because they know who they are, not
because they read something about them.

[10:31]
I’m hopeful that we’re going to bring politics to a more local grassroots
level, but that’s not what’s happening at the state and federal level in so
many ways. For young queer people who feel really scared about the future, the
future is very scary, but I think the only ways that we can actually make a
difference is by getting involved and by running for office, frankly.

[10:56]
I saw a gap in my community being served, and I decided step up, not because I
was trans, but because there were plenty of issues that I wanted to work on,
and I just so happen to be part of the LGBTQ community.

[11:07]
If anybody is listening to this podcast right now and saying, you know what,
I’ve really never considered running for office but I want to do something
good, it’s been the best experience of my life, and I couldn’t recommend it
anymore.

Matt:
[11:18] Well, that’s wonderful. It’s great that it’s been a positive experience
for you. Now, I’m going to shift to a topic, it’s a little bit more difficult,
and content note to our listeners that it is the topic of suicides and suicide
attempts. We know that within the LGBTQ+ community the rates of suicide and
attempts are very high, unfortunately.

[11:40]
The statistics are really sobering. We know that lesbian, gay, and bisexual
youth are nearly four times more likely to suicide than heterosexual youths.
Transgender adults are nearly nine times more likely to attempt suicide at some
point in their lifetime, compared to the general population.

[11:59]
According to a report just released by the Trevor Project, 41 percent of LGBTQ
young people seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year, and
young people who are transgender, non‑binary, and/or people of color
reported higher rates than their peers.

[12:17]
Why do you think these rates are so much higher for our community? What do you
think are the extra challenges that our community faces? Let’s start with you.
Rosemary.

Rosemary:
[12:29] It’s a really important question. Any community that is used as a pawn
and whose dignity and humanity is up for debate every single day, would
struggle to feel welcome and to feel like they have a place on this Earth.

[12:45]
Many of the young people that I speak to, I feel a lot of desperate emotions
around what their future looks like in this country. I used to tell them that,
hey, you just need to stay strong and not focus on those things. For example,
stay in the state of West Virginia, sacrifice your happiness to fight for the
state.

[13:08]
I don’t say that anymore in part because people deserve to feel safe and to
live in places where they feel dignified. If there are communities that are
creating sanctuaries for trans people, then those are safe communities.

[13:20]
I don’t plan to give up on the state of West Virginia, because in 2017, a
Williams Institute study found that West Virginia had the highest proportional
rate of trans youth anywhere in the country, and that’s no accident. We do a
lot to support our trans folks, but it is easier said than done.

[13:37]
What I tell trans kids here in the state of West Virginia is to find an allied
community, and to work with organizations like NAMI, the Trevor Project, and
the ACLU because those are really incredible and important organizations that
are doing a lot to reduce the risk of suicide.

[13:55]
One of the other things I want to say is, I know a lot of white cis folks, who
might not understand why self‑harm is so prevalent in the LGBT community.
I try to describe to them that when they walk outside as a white person or as a
cis person, it is their choice to get involved in politics.

[14:15]
It is their choice, whether they want to ignore it or lean in. As queer people
or as members of the black community, it is not our choice to be political. We
are politicized every single day. We turn on the news, we scroll through social
media, and our rights and humanities are up for debate.

[14:35]
I think that there’s a lot of work that we need to do to address challenges to
healthcare, which is particularly one of the reasons why trans folks don’t seek
medical care because they’re like, is it even legal for me to go to the doctors
these days?

[14:49]
We also need to be very honest about the harm that legislation is causing to
the mental health of our folks. It’s not an accident, and I wish more
legislators would understand that.

Matt:
[15:02] Frank, let me go to you on that. Again, specifically the issue of
suicide and suicide attempts, what are your views on why maybe those rates are
so much higher, and some of the challenges that LGBTQ+ community faces that
other folks don’t?

Frank:
[15:19] I think to, again, echo what Rosemary said earlier, social media is
really a driver for so many things that we are experiencing today. As not only
a consumer, but as someone who does create content full‑time, as a
general consumer, I consume a lot of social media every single day.

[15:44]
I’m constantly reading the articles. I’m constantly following things and seeing
what’s going on. I see how our children can become hopeless. I can see how they
can feel ostracized. I grew up as a fat black boy. I was probably one of the
biggest people in my class, and I remember feeling alone.

[16:09]
The only reason that I knew that I had that sense of love was because I had an
amazing mom while she was still alive. She had that same experience, but she
was a woman. She was able to tell me, I know you’ll be fine.

[16:25]
They’re going to pick on you, this is how you prepare yourself for it. Don’t
let them beat you up with something that you already have power over.

[16:34]
I say all that to say that I think that because our children have been afforded
the opportunity to be able to identify as whatever they want to identify as and
walk in their truth at such an early age, which is a privilege I didn’t have,
and I didn’t have the courage to do, they are faced with so much more adversity
as far as when it comes to the media, when it comes to legislation and things
like that.

[17:02]
It can be crippling because as an adult, as me and Rosemary just said, pride
for us at 30 is different for what it used to be like. You have children now
that are celebrating pride and I think that is so amazing.

[17:17]
The amount of things that come with that can be crippling. Like Rosemary said
as well, when there is not proper access to healthcare, not proper access to
clinicians, who can they speak with? Their parents haven’t experienced it. If
they don’t have any mentors in their life, they don’t know anyone that has
experience what they experience.

[17:39]
A lot of times, you have a queer student and it’s just one queer student in the
whole grade level, and so they’re the target. They’re the ones that’s picked
on. If someone comes out as non‑binary, they’re that non‑binary
kid, they’re that transgender kid, that’s that gay kid.

[17:57]
I think that because we haven’t put in the proper supports for our children,
which I think is intentional, we will continue to see the numbers continue to
rise until the narrative shifts.

[18:12]
As Rosemary said, that’s why this all is priming for the future. It could be
the target of the trans people. It could be targets of the gays. Then it could
go to non‑binary people. We don’t know which point of our community will
be hit next.

[18:29]
I think that’s the scariest part. As adults, we can manage, and we can figure
out, "This is what’s happening. I’m understanding of it," but our
children are in danger.

Matt:
[18:42] Right. Frank, I found what you said about your mother particularly
touching and insightful because we know the importance of support systems and
whether that’s your own family or chosen family, which is something that’s even
more important to LGBTQ people because quite often people come out to their
families and they don’t necessarily have a positive experience for that.

[19:05]
I think that your situation is something that is very inspiring. This question
is a related one. It’s rather delicate, so feel free to answer it or not, or
however you’d like. Have either of you struggled individually with thoughts of
suicide? I can tell you that I certainly have, and the statistics definitely
bear that out.

[19:30]
I wanted to see what your own personal experience your own thoughts may have
been with that. Frank, let’s stick with you if we could.

Frank:
[19:39] Absolutely. Growing up, like I said, I had the support. My family was
amazing. I did lose my dad when I was five years old and my mom when I was 14.
Losing those primary supports, knowing at the age of 14, I knew I was
different. I knew that I was not like anybody else at my school.

[19:59]
I was like, "What’s really going on?" I didn’t have anybody to talk
to. I grew up in a small town. I didn’t know anybody else that even looked like
what I looked like. I didn’t see representation in myself in media. I didn’t
see myself represented on any TV shows, so I’ve just felt like I was just here.

[20:17]
In those moments, where my support has left me, I’m like, well, how am I going
to continue to do this, because as I get older, life is going to get harder? I
did contemplate in that moment, do I really want to continue to be here? The only
reason that I chose to stay here, it’s a story I tell all the time.

[20:36]
On my computer, there was a picture of me and my three other best friends. I
told myself I cannot leave them, because they’re just going to not be able to
survive, because I’m the funnest friend.

Matt:
[20:47] [laughs]

Frank:
[20:48] I always joke with one of my friends. I used to be like, you all saved
me, because in that moment, I said you may not have this primary support from
your parents, but you do have chosen family in your friendships. You do still
have family members. You have to stick out the fight, because your life is
going to help someone else’s life.

[21:11]
That’s why I try to live every day and be positive, and just impart great
things into the world, because you never know how a conversation you have can
shift somebody’s entire mindset.

[21:24]
I’ll never forget. I’ll cut it up. I get long‑winded.

Matt:
[21:27] That’s OK.

Frank:
[21:29] I’ll never forget. After I won "The Circle," I was in
Houston, Texas. I was at a pool party, and a young lady came on to me at the
pool party. We’re all having a great time. There were libations, and she came
on to me and she held my hand, and she said, thank you. I was like, for what?
She was like, you saved my life.

[21:51]
I looked at her really strangely and I said, huh? She was like, I was so
depressed and sad, and I happened to see your face on the bulletin for The
Circle pop on my TV, and I never had watched it. I was like, he looks really
happy. What’s the show about?

[22:06]
She said, I watched your show, and it was the first time I had laughed in six
months. I’m telling you that I would not be here if you had not did that. That
always triggers my brain to tell me that I needed to stay here, because all
those years later, even if I just saved one person, that girl is still here
because I just showed up and was kind. I think that we just need more kind
people in the world.

Matt:
[22:33] Yeah. That shows you the power sometimes, just being yourself can have
such a powerful impact on somebody else.

[22:41]
I do think just the fact that who you are, and being a communicator, and living
your life as you do, unapologetically, and seeing how you interacted with other
people, for instance, on The Circle, I think it’s within the realm of
possibility that just doing that, just being yourself, can save people’s lives.

[23:01]
It’s such a great example. I mentioned my father earlier. She came out as
transsexual/transgender about six years ago at the age of 72. She’s been very,
very upfront and public about her story and advocacy. It’s just been so
inspiring to me.

[23:19]
I told her when she came out, I said it was just the moment I’ve never been
more proud of her in my life. It really healed a little bit of a rift between
us. That’s hopefully a little bit of inspiration for someone.

[23:32]
Rosemary, let me ask you. Are you comfortable talking about any particular
moments or experiences you’ve had in the past with suicidal thoughts?

Rosemary:
[23:40] Absolutely. I have had quite a linear mental health journey,
thankfully, and I’ve not experienced suicidal ideations. I’ve thought about
that because I speak to a lot of other trans folks and it is incredibly common.

[23:58]
In my experience, it’s a testament to my parents. My parents were blue‑collar
folks. My dad worked in the local factory for as long as I can remember. My mom
was a waitress, on and off raising myself, my two younger brothers, and my
older sister. Not formally educated.

[24:15]
When they knew that I was different at four and five years old, they had a lot
of questions. It gave them anxiety, but they’d led with love. I took that for
granted, assuming that, "Hey, they’re my parents, they’re supposed to love
me," without realizing that that is not the case for so many people.
Finding that family, whether it’s biological or chosen, is really, really key.

[24:40]
The other thing that gave me so much privilege and something I’m so lucky for
is that I transitioned relatively early. I started being able to verbalize my
gender identity at four and five. Then by 10, 11, 12, I started dressing in
alignment with my gender identity. That really gave me the confidence to, now at
30 years old, feel like I am fully transitioned and an adult in the most
empowered way.

[25:10]
I think about your experience, Matt, in having a parent that transitions so
much later in life. That takes so much courage, bravery, and patience. I think
that Frank and I are very lucky that we all live in the 2020s now and this is a
conversation we’re allowed to have.

[25:36]
Being transgender in the 1970s, the ’80s, and even before then, it was just not
acceptable. It was not a conversation that you would have. I feel very grateful
for my mental health experience, but always keeping an eye on it. When we feel
well, we forget that mental health exists.

[25:56]
Mental health is only a conversation when it’s a problem rather than saying,
"OK, how do we make sure that we’re feeling good and that we’re doing
things and we have a routine?" Those three things are really key.

Matt:
[26:08] We say again and again, you are not alone. Look for those communities.
Look for those sources of inspiration. They are out there. There are people who
will love you absolutely the way you are. Just reach out and certainly reach
out to NAMI if you’re having any issues like that.

[26:25]
Frank, we’re about to shift into something you talked a little bit about
earlier. A recent survey that NAMI and the Adobe Foundation conducted found out
that young people and LGBTQ+ respondents were more likely than older adults and
heterosexual respondents to say that engaging in a creative activity could lead
to reduced feelings of depression or hopelessness and develop a sense of
belonging in a community.

[26:51]
Frank, you’re a young person and you’re creative, also a content creator, but
you also work with young people as a school therapist. Let me ask, what has
your experience been like personally merging or the interface between
creativity and mental health? Do you see this as a form of self‑care for
you even?

Frank:
[27:12] Absolutely. I actually did leave my full‑time social work job to
pursue content creating, but I still do have amazing opportunities to speak on
mental health like this. I still pop into different kid settings every now and
then.

[27:29]
While I was a therapist in the schools, I maybe had a traditional therapy
session maybe less than 10 percent of the time, because I believed in meeting
the children where they are. I believed in inspiring them to think outside the
b…