February 19, 2025
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In the aftermath of the Los Angeles wildfires in January 2025, many of us have questions about how we can best support those who have lost their homes, their memories, and their places in the world. This episode of “Hope Starts With Us” features NAMI CEO Daniel H. Gillison, Jr. in conversation with NAMI West Los Angeles CEO Erin Raftery Ryan and Stella Mental Health Chief Psychologist Shauna “Doc” Springer. Through their conversation, the group shares stories from the fires, how to support our neighbors after traumatic events, the idea of ‘bright siding,’ and more.
You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.
We hope this podcast encourages you, inspires you, helps you and brings you further into the collective to know: you are not alone.
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Erin Raftery Ryan is the CEO of NAMI West Los Angeles and comes from a family of military and first responders. She is married to an Army veteran and brings a multidisciplinary approach to leadership, blending expertise in nonprofit management, politics, and entertainment. A former NCAA Division I athlete, Erin holds degrees from the University of Connecticut, the Uta Hagen Institute and Harvard Business School. She has worked on Capitol Hill, spearheaded national advocacy programs, and produced films highlighting social issues. Passionate about leveraging storytelling for change, Erin joins the podcast to discuss trauma, grief, and community resilience.
Shauna ‘Doc’ Springer, Ph.D., is a licensed psychologist, three-time best-selling author, frequently requested keynote speaker, award-winning podcast host, and one of the world’s leading experts on psychological trauma, military transition, suicide prevention, and close relationships. A Harvard graduate who has become a trusted Doc to our nation’s military warfighters and first responders, she navigates diverse cultures with exceptional agility.
As Chief Psychologist for Stella Mental Health, Dr. Springer promotes a groundbreaking approach to addressing psychological trauma by integrating biological and psychological therapies. With over 20 years of experience in all different types of emotional trauma and mental health challenges environments, she is frequently sought after by the media for her valuable insights on post-traumatic growth, trauma recovery, interpersonal relationships, and psychological well-being. Her insights on psychology and interpersonal relationships have been featured in various media outlets, including VICE, Psychology Today, NPR, NBC, Military Times, Police1, Business Insider, CNN, and CBS Radio.
Dr. Springer’s unique upbringing and love for those who protect and defend us, and her compassionate approach to all who suffer from trauma drive her approach to her work, which emphasizes the importance of love and trust in overcoming challenges and maintaining healthy relationships.
Dan Gillison brings expertise in non-profit leadership and a passion for advocating for people with mental illness to NAMI. Before coming to NAMI, Dan led the American Psychiatric Association Foundation (APAF), where he was responsible for strategic planning, personnel management, board communications, oversight of APAF’s public education programs and outreach, and formulating strategic alliances and partnerships to further APAF’s mission. Prior to APAF, Gillison led County Solutions and Innovation for the National Association of Counties, where he was instrumental in repositioning the organization’s programs to provide expertise in health and human services, justice, and public safety.
Dan has more than 30 years of experience and has previously held leadership positions at Xerox, Nextel, and Sprint. Dan holds a B.A. from Southern University and A&M College. Dan spearheaded the creation of the CEO Alliance for Mental Health in 2020, which represents some of the most vulnerable and diverse populations affected by disparities in the mental health care system. The leadership collective has collaborated to identify and amplify their priorities for creating a future of quality mental health care for all who need it. Dan serves on lululemon’s Mental Wellbeing Global Advisory Board.
00:00:00:02 - 00:00:25:12
Erin
What was happening on the ground here on the west side of Los Angeles was just unimaginable. You know, living in Southern California, you know that there is a risk. There's risks with natural disasters, but oftentimes you don't think it's going to happen to you. And it did. And now we're starting to shift. And really seeing the marathon of what this is and the long-term mental health effects.
00:00:25:14 - 00:00:53:22
Erin
We're going to need to step up like we've never stepped up before to really help rebuild and provide that hope and that resilience for our community. Among the ashes, things will be rebuilt because the sense of community that has come together here in Los Angeles, L.A. strong. I mean, you can feel it. It's palpable how our community has come together to uplift and hold that space, to be resilient and to provide hope.
00:00:54:00 - 00:00:55:16
Erin
It's quite inspiring, actually.
00:00:55:22 - 00:01:18:08
Dan
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAM, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. My name is Daniel H. Gillison Jrn and I am the host for this podcast. NAMI started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us. All of us. Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible.
00:01:18:09 - 00:01:45:12
Dan
Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories, and hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you. Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode, with each conversation brings you into that collective,
00:01:45:17 - 00:02:20:04
Dan
so you know you are not alone. And today's episode is incredibly important. And in the aftermath of the Los Angeles wildfires in January of 2025, many of us have questions about how we can best support those who have lost their homes, their memories, and their places in the world. This episode features in conversations with NAMI West Los Angeles CEO, Erin Raftery Ryan and Stella Mental Health Chief Psychologist Shauna “Doc” Springer.
00:02:20:06 - 00:02:52:06
Dan
Through their conversation, the group will share stories from the fires, how to support our neighbors after traumatic events, and the idea of brightsiding and more. So as we begin this conversation, where I want to go is that this is about supporting a community and neighbors experiencing trauma. We know the genesis of this episode was the trio of LA wildfires, the Palisades, Eaton, Hughes, and more. Cluster of wildfires led to evacuations across the city.
00:02:52:07 - 00:03:16:12
Dan
Loss of homes, both valuable and sentimental personal items that simply can't be replaced. In the aftermath of the fires, NAMI and our local affiliates are asking, how can we be of service? What's the most useful help to give these communities? And if tragedy like this strikes our communities outside of Los Angeles, how can the lessons we learn here help us support our neighbors?
00:03:16:14 - 00:03:38:14
Dan
So our guest today will be talking about that, and we want to make sure that you understand that this is going to be not just me asking questions and them answering. We want to make it fluid. So if there's something that I'm not asking to the guest, I want to say that this is your platform, your opportunity to share with everyone listening, your learnings, your observations and what you would like others to know.
00:03:38:14 - 00:04:04:23
Dan
So as I start this, Erin, you have been very passionate about the power of storytelling to create social impact, leading with intentionality and a growth mindset. A trained teacher in mindfulness-based cognitive therapy from the Brown School of Public Health, a master gardener from the United States Department of Agriculture and the University of California, and currently studying at Harvard Business School, pursuing your executive MBA.
00:04:05:01 - 00:04:33:21
Dan
So the yard. We call it the yard, right? So now, Dr. Shauna “Doc” Springer, I love calling you “Doc” if that's okay. But Dr. Springer, Chief Psychologist at Stella Mental Health, one of the world's leading experts on psychological trauma, military transition, suicide prevention, and close relationships. Three-time bestselling author, frequently requested keynote speaker, award winning podcast host.
00:04:33:23 - 00:04:59:06
Dan
So, folks, as you're listening, I was fine in doing this until I read award winning podcast host. I just became real nervous. I just became real nervous. From California. Doc is from California and these wildfires impacted her hometown. So, so glad to have you both with us. And as we begin, I'll start with Erin. And Erin is the CEO of NAMI West LA.
00:04:59:08 - 00:05:08:00
Dan
Can you tell us what the experience on the ground has been like, and what are you hearing about your community's mental health after the fires?
00:05:08:02 - 00:05:34:08
Erin
Thank you, Dan. Thank you so much, first, for just having this conversation. What was happening on the ground here on the west side of Los Angeles was just unimaginable. Just unimaginable. The shock, the grief. You know, living in Southern California, you know, that there is a risk. There's risks with natural disasters. But oftentimes you don't think it's going to happen to you or your hometown.
00:05:34:10 - 00:06:14:12
Erin
And it did. It did. It continues. You know, there was a sprint, right, to really meet our community's needs for safety. That was the first and foremost, making sure that everyone is safe. And then with food, water, shelter, making sure that their immediate needs are taken care of. And now we're starting to shift and really seeing the marathon of what this is and the long term mental health effects we're going to need to step up like we've never stepped up before, to really help rebuild and provide that hope and that resilience for our community. And our community, our NAMI community,
00:06:14:12 - 00:06:37:13
Erin
Our team is right alongside our collective community that's really been impacted because we have team members that have lost everything. You know, they've lost their homes. And so we're just internally as a team, we're trying to make sure that we're supporting our team members and we have one who is a peer specialist. He's a peer support group facilitator.
00:06:37:15 - 00:07:12:03
Erin
And, you know, he's still facilitating our support groups. And by showing up for other people, it's really helping him show up for himself. But such resilience. And then just myself, our family had to evacuate. And just the, the process of trying to make choices of what you're supposed to bring with you is just a very unique exercise, to say, okay, you know, you have those important pieces, like the people, pets, papers, right?
00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:14
Erin
The plastics, your all of those things, right? Your passport, all of those things. But then you'd be so surprised what you think to grab, right? What are those mementos of souvenirs and really just being on that high alert consistently because you don't know. And it comes in waves. So, I see Doc nodding her head. She knows it all too well.
00:07:36:16 - 00:07:59:09
Erin
But everyone in Southern California has this app called Watch Duty. And you, you have it on and it dings and it lets you know, and God bless them because it's amazing to have this resource, but the wind can shift and then you need to be gone in an instant. And so making sure that you are and again, Doc, you could probably speak to this more than anybody. But myself,
00:07:59:09 - 00:08:20:18
Erin
coming from a military family, I know this too, of being on high alert. But yet being calm, making sure that everyone around you is fine, but making sure that you are very diligent in what is happening. And so just that dichotomy of high alert and calm, making sure you're taking care of everyone is exhausting, you know?
00:08:20:18 - 00:08:39:20
Erin
And Dan, thank you so much personally and professionally. You reached out and sent a text message and said, how are you? What can we do? What do you need? And not just you? You know, so many people from your team on the national, state, and local levels. People reached out and, you know, sometimes you just don't know what you need in that moment.
00:08:40:02 - 00:08:50:09
Erin
You're just trying to put one foot in front of the other. So right now, thank goodness we're through that part of the crisis. And now we're looking at the marathon that is in front of us.
00:08:50:11 - 00:09:09:05
Dan
Erin, thank you so much. And I want to also thank you for responding to my text. I mean, here you are in the middle of what you don't know and seeing what's happening and possibly having to leave your home and take what valuables you can get. And you responded to my text and I know mine was one of many.
00:09:09:05 - 00:09:30:15
Dan
So I appreciate that very much because as I thought about it, I'm like, you feel helpless, but you want to help. So this goes into what Doc will help us with in terms of really understanding, mentally. And I also come from a military family. And I remember visiting my brother, and at that time, he was a part of the 82nd and visiting him at the military base.
00:09:30:15 - 00:09:47:22
Dan
And he's got his bag at the door with his rifle and his gear, because he has to be, you know, ready to deploy at a moment's notice. This is very different. I remember all the times visiting California, I always was struck by the air, how fresh the air was and what the beauty was in terms of the scenery.
00:09:48:03 - 00:10:11:20
Dan
And none of us that weren't there can't understand the difference in the air and the beauty that's been destroyed. So, having listened a little bit to what Erin spoke of and what you experienced, Doc, we've been hearing different reactions to the impact of these fires. In your professional experience, is it common for folks to experience similar events in a variety of ways?
00:10:11:22 - 00:10:35:22
Dr. Springer
Oh, yes. I mean, as you say, Dan, two people in a relationship can experience the same event in totally different ways. This is really a complicated thing to what Erin was saying. You know, I grew up in Pacific Palisades, and I remember there were a couple of fires growing up, but a few years ago, there was a transition where summer and it became fire season.
00:10:36:00 - 00:10:56:04
Dr. Springer
And what that does psychologically is when you have to evacuate, but you come back, evacuate, but you come back. It's a different thing than this being the first time we've ever evacuated. So a lot of people will say, you know, I regret that I didn't take more. I regret that I left the scene so quickly in those things
00:10:56:04 - 00:11:14:03
Dr. Springer
maybe I could have taken. And so you sort of look back and think, how could that have played out differently when we really thought we were going to come back in a couple of days. We really thought because of the persistence of the alerts, you know, again, Watch Duty to your point, Erin, it’s a wonderful lifesaving app.
00:11:14:05 - 00:11:38:21
Dr. Springer
But the more dings you get about, you might have to evacuate. It kind of habituates people to what can happen. And so that's one of the things that I'm hearing. And then we don't come into trauma neutral. If you think about what trauma is, it's an event that causes helplessness or horror that shatters fundamental assumptions of how safe the world is, how other people can be trusted, or how we can trust ourselves.
00:11:38:23 - 00:12:04:14
Dr. Springer
And so, as a trauma therapist, I'm listening for, is this trauma a trauma that is a novel experience where somebody is having their assumptions shattered, assumptions they didn't even know they had, perhaps? Or is this another, trauma in a string of traumas? And maybe on the flip side, they've been through other traumas and they know how resilient they are.
00:12:04:16 - 00:12:31:06
Dr. Springer
And so they have created an identity based around resilience. And they're comfortable with the discomfort of having to compartmentalize, like Erin is talking about. It's that and you also talked about that readiness but compartmentalizing. So you kind of like bring order to a chaotic situation. Some people have had practice with that. And for other people, this is just hitting them in such a way that is so raw.
00:12:31:08 - 00:13:03:09
Dr. Springer
You know, there's trauma and then there's disruption. And these are two different things. There are people who are impacted, but their lives have not been as disrupted as other people who have had to relocate and really seen their community and the things that they depend on every day to give their lives structure and their nervous system regulated by these predictable things, by these people that they see They're now sort of feeling like they're at loose ends with nothing to really structure their daily life.
00:13:03:09 - 00:13:09:10
Dr. Springer
So it's very complicated. And yes, this will affect different people in very different ways.
00:13:09:12 - 00:13:25:22
Dan
Doc, thank you very much. Situations like these fires, there might be a sense of survivor's guilt. What are some ways that a person feeling that way could contribute? Could help family of friends or acquaintances more severely impacted?
00:13:26:00 - 00:13:43:22
Dr. Springer
Well, I'll start with myself. You know, I am somebody who grew up in Pacific Palisades. And when they showed pictures of Marquez Elementary, that was one of the schools that got burned down. There was a mosaic that kept showing up on the news. I was there the year that each of us kids put a piece into that mosaic, and here I am.
00:13:43:23 - 00:14:05:02
Dr. Springer
I'm living in Northern California, watching this devastation, talking to loved ones, people who have lost their homes and thinking, what can I do? And one of the things I think we can do is really look out for the unspoken needs. So a lot of times when people go through this kind of a crisis, they're torn between two primal needs.
00:14:05:04 - 00:14:28:07
Dr. Springer
You know, Erin talked about needing to reestablish safety, basic physiological needs. How are you going to get to a safe place to get your food? And at the same time, maybe they have kids or people that are elderly that are dependent on them. And so they're feeling this pull between establishing safety and attending to the emotional and other needs of their kids for normalcy.
00:14:28:09 - 00:14:48:11
Dr. Springer
So one of the things you can do is really look out for those places where people are torn in two directions and maybe pull one of their kids into your family. Pick them up and take them to school. Take responsibility for taking an elderly adult that is dependent on them out for an outing. You can give them a day of no decisions at all.
00:14:48:12 - 00:15:05:07
Dr. Springer
Just say, hey, I'd like to pick you up and take you to a place that we've both enjoyed in the past, and I'm going to take care of lunch. I know what you like, and then we're going to go to a store. We're going to buy an outfit where, you know, it feels like something you would wear, and I'm going to pay for it.
00:15:05:13 - 00:15:16:11
Dr. Springer
And I don't want you to make any decisions. Just giving them a break from having to make constant decisions could be another thing here. Erin, I'm sure you have ideas too. What do you think people need and what do you see?
00:15:16:13 - 00:15:42:17
Erin
First of all, thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your personal background and how you attended Marquez School when you were younger. And that's actually one of the schools that we present to with our NAMI programing. So it's kind of a full circle conversation in that respect. Professionally, you know, because we serve this community, we're really trying to do and meet those needs of-- a lot of those kids are still displaced.
00:15:42:17 - 00:16:07:19
Erin
You know, their schools are no longer there. So really reaching out to the other schools that have kind of absorbed those populations to make sure that they have, you know, capacity. What do they need? Working with other schools like their leadership classes or things, engaging the students to help the other students to empower them, because it's not just adults that feel that way.
00:16:07:20 - 00:16:29:12
Erin
You know, that that survivor guilt that, like you said, sometimes it's really hard to process how their school is no longer there anymore. And I think too, like the practical assistance, like you were saying. So they don't have to make those decisions, you know. Offering to provide child care, perhaps, so that they can have a moment to themselves, providing meals or things like that.
00:16:29:12 - 00:16:49:03
Erin
When we had to evacuate, we were really thinking about our family because we had never had to evacuate before. That was the first time that we had to go through that exercise and process. And a lot of what you were saying was ringing true, but as soon as we got outside, we had the dogs, we had our cars packed with two vehicles.
00:16:49:05 - 00:17:10:06
Erin
And then I see my husband and I'm thinking, where's he going? And it was our neighbor. We have an elderly neighbor that lives next door, and he went to go get her. And at that moment it was like, it’s not just us. There are so many people. And she doesn't have immediate family that was close by and she lives with dementia.
00:17:10:08 - 00:17:28:07
Erin
So it was very hard because she knows him. And she was saying, you know, where are you taking me? And then I said, you know, we gotta go, like it's time. Like there can't be-- there's no time for discussion right now. Let's go. Come on. And we got her in the car. And at that moment. And bless her heart, she was very confused.
00:17:28:12 - 00:18:03:11
Erin
Are you kidnaping me? Where am I going? And then our children, we shifted all of a sudden. It took the attention off of ourselves and we put it on somebody else. And it actually helped us and our process. And I think sometimes too, when, even post, when after even the fires are now extinguished, sometimes when you take the attention off of yourself and put it on someone else and use that energy with that practical assistance and that act of listening, I think that's how we can show up for our community and our neighbors.
00:18:03:13 - 00:18:25:17
Dan
Yeah. Erin and Doc, this is this is a fantastic discussion. And talking about, you know, what you navigated and looking at the school that you started at, Doc and then what that looked like. Erin, I'd like to ask you a question in terms of you, the CEO of NAMI Westside LA, you provide incredible programing, have a great staff, and you provide programing in many of the communities that were affected.
00:18:25:23 - 00:18:42:01
Dan
And you just shared that one of those employees, even having lost their home and all of their belongings, is actually facilitating a class, almost turning their pain into that purpose right now. What are you seeing amongst your staff in terms of their resilience?
00:18:42:03 - 00:19:06:09
Erin
Well, thank you for those questions, Dan, and it is nothing less than inspiring to see our team member and see his resilience and how he's providing hope for others. It's extraordinary. Just extraordinary. And it's again, kind of unimaginable. But using that that term that we use a lot in NAMI and that's turning your pain into purpose.
00:19:06:11 - 00:19:13:02
Erin
So he is exceptional in that way I don't know if I could do the same in the same situation. I don't know.
00:19:13:08 - 00:19:31:13
Dan
The biggest thing is when we come to these jobs, we come to these jobs as our full selves and as a mom and as a wife, and you're looking at this even with your cognitive therapy training, you're learning. What was this like for you from this situation in terms of your response?
00:19:31:14 - 00:19:52:07
Erin
It was difficult. It was difficult to keep the balance between keeping my family safe, making sure we were safe, and then also just really showing up for my community and making sure that I was there to make sure that we were offering everything that we could for our first responders. What can we do to provide help and security and what do they need?
00:19:52:07 - 00:20:14:00
Erin
Organizing lunches, water, you know, just shifts of people kind of helping it to provide. Their immediate needs because we need to help the helpers, right? And at the same time, my children are not in school because we are on high alert and we can, you know, have to leave at a moment's notice. So we had our go bags, all of that.
00:20:14:00 - 00:20:45:05
Erin
So balancing those two things was very difficult. And I think maybe about a week after the fires stopped, I got incredibly sick. My body just shut down. And I think, you know, we all know the body keeps the score, right? And so for me, physically, I think I was really just holding myself together so much that after I finally was able to release and relax and my body just needed to rest. But also, my children are the ones to that--
00:20:45:05 - 00:21:00:13
Erin
sometimes my littlest goes, “Mom, go like this,” you know. She said, “Just, just let it all out,” you know? So they see us. They see us. They're watching us. And they're taking cues from us. They're great teachers.
00:21:00:15 - 00:21:24:00
Dan
They are. And Erin, what you were navigating then was probably just days of adrenaline, days of adrenaline and, so I want to go to Doc now and ask Doc. Doc, as Erin has spoken, and you both have spoken of the devastation, we talk about the survivor's guilt. In that survivor's guilt, is there any concept of could this happen again?
00:21:24:02 - 00:21:42:23
Dan
Are we safe? What's the navigation like on that? Because you've got some that have lost everything and they can't worry about, is it going to happen again because they don't have an again to worry about? But for those that do, are they walking on eggshells? How do they navigate the possibilities of the next fire?
00:21:43:01 - 00:22:03:06
Dr. Springer
Yeah, I mean, it's not just the fire, right? It gets generalized to what else could happen that could kind of pull me into this alternate universe. I mean, right now Southern California is expecting unprecedented rainfall, and this is really dangerous because there's no vegetation on the hills. And so there could be risk of mudslides and there may be more evacuations.
00:22:03:06 - 00:22:24:19
Dr. Springer
And so, absolutely, Dan, to your point, it generalizes to, is the world a place that feels safe that I could trust? And so that level of hyper vigilance. I mean, Erin, what you're describing is classic kind of adrenal fatigue. Your husband, he's served in the Army. It's a beautiful thing that he did. I'm not surprised. Like that's what warriors do.
00:22:24:19 - 00:22:46:15
Dr. Springer
They look for your neighbor, you know, they bring her in. And as a family, you came around and you were the warrior wife. That kind of, like, compartmentalized, took care of your community, kept your family safe. And an armored tank will break down after a certain amount of time. Like, that's just the human toll that this takes. You're going to hit adrenal fatigue.
00:22:46:15 - 00:23:13:02
Dr. Springer
And so it's the original trauma that puts you there. But the process, Dan and Erin, it's so opposite of what trauma-informed care should be like. Here's something I've been thinking about. What came up for some of the people in my groups, they talked about these two lists that came up, the list of everything you have to catalog for the insurance adjusters, and then the list of everything you can't replace.
00:23:13:02 - 00:23:37:06
Dr. Springer
That was like constantly popping up in their dreams and their intrusive images, things that they can't recover, that you can't put value on. Even the process of creating the first list of this inventory, one of the members of the group said, it's like being forced to go to a funeral after you've just lost someone and stand in front of the open casket and be held in that space.
00:23:37:11 - 00:24:01:02
Dr. Springer
As you're cataloging every single thing in that life that you've had, that you no longer have, that's the opposite of what a trauma-informed approach would be, and it keeps you in that state of elevated fight or flight, as well as all the little like micro adjustments that you have to make when you're wearing clothes you've never worn before, when you're in a different place. And somebody else
00:24:01:02 - 00:24:24:09
Dr. Springer
said it feels like I'm on vacation in a place I don't want to be. I don't recognize myself. These things are not just things. This kind of trauma can hit to the core of a person's identity, and their identity isn't changed, but for a while, it's sort of submerged beneath layers of trauma and grief, and it can take time to work through that.
00:24:24:09 - 00:24:37:18
Dr. Springer
We're just now and, Erin, I think you said this just now, coming out of that initial sort of shock and living nightmare phase, and just now we're hitting the marathon of what it's going to look like for people to heal and recover.
00:24:37:20 - 00:24:47:08
Dan
Yeah. What does resiliency and recovery look like, Doc? What does it look like to you, Erin on the ground? What does it look like, you and your practice, resiliency and recovery?
00:24:47:10 - 00:25:13:21
Dr. Springer
To me, resiliency is intertwined with hope. The theme of this podcast is hope starts with us and hope is the starting point of resiliency. So just knowing in me if I could share like one thing that people walk away from here, it's that your identity is unchanged. It's still there. It's just covered up for now. And as you begin to have more control and agency, some self-determination, you can make some conscious decisions.
00:25:13:23 - 00:25:41:09
Dr. Springer
You'll feel the return to that. And as you're raw, you're going to feel things very deeply. You're going to observe things from a different lens. The things that you took as unconscious assumptions or beliefs, they're going to surface in these next weeks and that there are ways to heal. So resiliency to me is, you know, it's been used in the military community by people who are not from the military community, which I've chafed at.
00:25:41:09 - 00:26:10:19
Dr. Springer
I really worked to replace it almost with the concept of psychological elasticity, that we have capacity and we have range. And it's not just about bounce back, but it's about your ability to go into the places that are dark and hard. Your ability to approach and walk through grief in safe ways is essential to healing, and it's hope that if you do that work, if you do those things with the right insights and the right support, that you will heal.
00:26:10:20 - 00:26:36:16
Dan
Thank you. Resiliency and recovery, Erin, what does it look like from your perspective and work you're doing? And I would venture to say that some of the programs that we normally deliver in your own voice, family to family, peer to peer, family and friends, some of that has to change now from the standpoint of maybe there's some other programming and some other design because we're trying to help people with their coping skills and and for them to have hope.
00:26:36:22 - 00:26:42:10
Dan
What does resiliency and recovery look like from the NAMI West LA perspective?
00:26:42:12 - 00:27:09:05
Erin
Well, I think resiliency and hope is a big part of NAMI. And I do think that a lot of our skills as NAMI leaders really translate with this situation because I think a lot of it is active listening and being present, you know. Listening to understand, not to solve. And, Dan, you and I and I'm sure, Doc too, we are innately problem solvers, right?
00:27:09:05 - 00:27:35:09
Erin
That's probably what we try to do. Or at least I know that's something that I want to fix it. Right? I want to make it better. And really, the best thing I think that you can do is to be present, to listen, to really hold space. I mean, that is resiliency, that is hope to provide a platform for people to express themselves and acknowledge them without judgment.
00:27:35:11 - 00:27:58:18
Erin
I think that that is resilience. And again, the power of storytelling. There is a community member, her name is Kalina Silverman, and she’s a content creator. And she does something called Big Talk. And she skips the small talk. She goes straight to the bones of the big things. And she has used her platform to interview people that have been impacted by the fires.
00:27:58:20 - 00:28:21:12
Erin
And she interviewed Ms. Lou from Pacific Palisades. And Ms. Lou is 96 about to be 97? It's so funny. When you get older, it's like when you were younger, you're like, I'm five and a half, right? Well, she's 96, about to be 97. And bless her, she was the first Black female homeowner in Pacific Palisades. And she lost everything.
00:28:21:14 - 00:28:53:22
Erin
She lost everything. And when you talk to her and you ask like, “What is hope to you?” And she says, “hope doesn't die, hope doesn't die. ” And so among the ashes, things will be rebuilt, because the sense of community that has come together here in Los Angeles, LA strong. I mean, you can feel it. It's palpable how our community has come together to uplift and hold that space, to be resilient and to provide hope.
00:28:54:00 - 00:28:56:04
Erin
It's quite inspiring, actually.
00:28:56:06 - 00:29:14:22
Dan
What a powerful story, Ms. Lou. Hope doesn't die. I could hear her saying that, you know, hope doesn't die. I've heard of these concepts of toxic positivity or brightsiding. What is that, Doc? What are those, excuse me? Toxic positivity and or brightsiding.
00:29:15:00 - 00:29:36:08
Dr. Springer
So toxic positivity is when you try to control the emotional experience of someone else by sort of forcing them down a channel of things like, well, you know, “these are material things” or “everything happens for a reason,” or “it could have been worse.” “At least you're okay.” Those are the obvious things. You know, “God never gives us stuff we can't handle.”
00:29:36:10 - 00:29:57:20
Dr. Springer
And what it does is it isolates people even more and it makes them feel even sometimes a bit ashamed for the things that they actually are feeling and need to express, whether it's survivor guilt, whether it's grief, whether it's anger, or whether it's rage, whether it's helplessness, whether it's depression, whether it's loss of identity, all of that.
00:29:57:22 - 00:30:28:19
Dr. Springer
You've kind of cut that off at the past, but there's other ways that we can brightside that are a little less obvious. And it might also sound something like “you're so strong, I know that you'll bounce back,” right? It's well intended, but I'm so glad we're talking about this because I would say as a psychologist, if you're thinking about, you know, I don’t want to say the wrong thing or what do I say? Like, don't try and think of anything to say, like, be boring. Be boring and show up.
00:30:28:19 - 00:30:54:02
Dr. Springer
Just say, “I love you and I'm here for you.” And then show that you're there and just pause. Wait. Let people share anything they need to share. In my work, I often think that, you know, the first story people tell you isn't the story you need to understand. It's a test of trust. Can I trust you to tell you the real stuff?
00:30:54:04 - 00:31:19:11
Dr. Springer
So I guess it would be the big talk, right? Can I advance to the big talk and really share what’s you know, really bothering me or really hurting me or really making me think differently about people? One of the things that happens with trauma is that sometimes our address book changes. The people we thought would show up for us aren't the people that show up for us, and yet there's other people that step up in ways that we never could have predicted.
00:31:19:13 - 00:31:45:01
Dr. Springer
There's another thing that I've called the burst of support effect happens with good and bad things that happen to humans. If you have a baby, there's a burst of support. People bring you meals, and then they go back to their lives. If you've had a trauma, there's a burst of support, and then when you really need the help the most, a few weeks, a few months into the trauma, people often go back to their lives because they're not directly impacted in that same way.
00:31:45:03 - 00:32:09:18
Dr. Springer
And what you need is really fellow marathon pacers. You need people to step up and make a commitment to a long term support. And so I think, yes, there's very little that you can say that will comfort people as much as your loving and safe presence and giving space to them to feel. So express. Plan whatever they need to do to begin to heal.
00:32:09:20 - 00:32:31:03
Dan
You know, Doc, this has been very helpful in terms of this toxic positivity as well as the brightside and the conversation you just had, as well as what Erin just said about us all being, you know, problem solvers and we want to solve the problem. And many times it's about being that active listener. What we say at NAMI is meeting people where they are, not where we want them to be.
00:32:31:08 - 00:32:53:15
Dan
And you just helped me, Doc, with the toxic positivity because as you were giving the example of it, I thought about my dad and some things. My dad. He should meet Ms. Lou. My dad is 91 years old and, still with us, and he's always positive. But, one of the things I've used a little too often with my family is, make lemonade out of lemons.
00:32:53:17 - 00:33:17:05
Dan
And that is exactly what you just shared. And that. Thank you. Because that's that toxic positivity. So as we think about this and your experiences, you mentioned how, you know, LA has just come forward to address this. Is there anything you'd like the audience to know? Because you're going to have people from across the United States that will hear this, and maybe even internationally.
00:33:17:07 - 00:33:19:15
Dan
What would you like the audience to know?
00:33:19:17 - 00:33:41:23
Dr. Springer
I would say I want people to know that trauma is not a life sentence. I think in the field of mental health and at NAMI, you know this so well that there's been this quiet revolution in trauma care where we now see that trauma impacts the body. You know, you mentioned the body keeps the score there are biological injuries that happen.
00:33:42:01 - 00:34:10:06
Dr. Springer
We're actually doing a study right now at Stella Mental Health with NYU that has brain scans. And so it turns out you can see trauma if you have the right brain scan. And it can be healed with biological treatments that are now available. So there's this new model for treating trauma that really applies biological treatments like SGB and ketamine and TMS, transcranial magnetic stimulation, just to give three examples and more coming.
00:34:10:08 - 00:34:34:03
Dr. Springer
So we have all of these new options and therapeutics that work really well in combination with trauma-informed talk therapy. I also think we're making steps away from trauma-focused therapy to trauma-informed therapy. Those are not the same thing. So really thinking about how do we help people heal from trauma in a way that doesn't create more trauma?
00:34:34:08 - 00:34:59:02
Dr. Springer
That's part of this quiet revolution of using biological treatments in combination with trauma informed talk therapy. And every day-- I had three patients this morning. I see people who have had deep trauma achieve relief. It is not a life sentence. People are not broken and they don't have to live in trauma because we now have treatments that are available and effective.
00:34:59:04 - 00:35:01:02
Dr. Springer
That's what I would want people to know.
00:35:01:04 - 00:35:07:02
Dan
Thank you, Doc. Thank you very much. And we're not done yet. Erin, what would you like people to know?
00:35:07:04 - 00:35:29:05
Erin
Well, thank you, Doc, for sharing that because I think that that message is so important for our community to know that this is temporary. This is something that's temporary. Although I think that if people are watching or listening from across the country or the world, just know that any kind of support is helpful, I think. I do think that people need help.
00:35:29:05 - 00:35:51:11
Erin
I think that, you know, resources. And there's been so many wonderful, GoFundMe’s for particular families, things like that. And just our, you know, small affiliate, we're going to be here to help rebuild our community. And so we're starting support groups specifically for those impacted by the fires, working with the Boys and Girls Club, the YMCA.
00:35:51:16 - 00:35:59:05
Erin
So if there's anything, if you are moved to give, there are places for you to show up in a meaningful way.
00:35:59:07 - 00:36:17:20
Dan
You know, thank you very much. And I want to now go to something else. Adverse Childhood Experiences, ACEs. It's those of us that were not living it and were watching it on the news consistently and constantly. We saw the parents navigating for their children, and all of a sudden their child's school is gone. Their children's school is gone.
00:36:18:01 - 00:36:33:08
Dan
That rhythm. Doc, what are you seeing with, I think there's ten elements of adverse childhood experiences? And I think that one of them that I noticed after Katrina that wasn't there is when you have to relocate a family. Could you talk about ACEs and what you're seeing right now?
00:36:33:10 - 00:37:00:13
Dr. Springer
Sure. So ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences is a scale that has people kind of check off, which of these different events that they've experienced and the events that we're talking about very much beyond what I know about adverse childhood experiences is if you have one safe, stable, reliable adult that sees you, that is a huge deterrent to an impact of adverse childhood experiences.
00:37:00:13 - 00:37:29:00
Dr. Springer
So I know that on your NAMI resource page, you have a really wonderful resource, a trusted adult. Becoming a trusted adult, I think that's critical in the context of this conversation, because it doesn't have to be your parents. I had when, I was ten years old, a couple of really big traumas in my family that threatened the lives of both of my parents, and I was staying with a trusted adult for just a couple weeks while they were recovering from this thing, and I still remember it to this day.
00:37:29:02 - 00:37:52:09
Dr. Springer
Like that made such a big difference to me, to have somebody else who is safe and reliable and stable. And so that's a way that people can really step up and help parents by taking a child into their lives and giving that child normalcy, stability, safety, predictability, and being that trusted adult to hear them and see them would be huge.
00:37:52:11 - 00:38:17:05
Dr. Springer
Or with elderly family members, you know the example you gave, Erin, about somebody with dementia? You know, that's really challenging because, you know, cognitively, there's issues that are also complicating factors. But being somebody to take a family member out and just let that family member talk really can relieve the burden and allow people to focus on what they need to do to reestablish safety kind of in the big picture.
00:38:17:07 - 00:38:30:18
Dr. Springer
So I love that resource, Dan and Erin, that you guys have. And I think that that kind of work and really guiding people to become those kind of people, whether they have a degree or a license, you could become a trusted adult.
00:38:30:20 - 00:38:50:22
Dan
Thank you. Doc. As we go to wrap this up, we always ask this of our guests: The world can be a difficult place as you have experienced, and sometimes it can be hard to hold on to hope. That's why with each episode, we dedicate the last couple of minutes of our podcast to a special segment called Hold On To Hope.
00:38:51:00 - 00:39:02:17
Dan
Erin and Shauna, can you tell us what is helping you hold on to hope and what is it that helps you hold on to hope even before the fires?
00:39:02:19 - 00:39:35:05
Erin
For me, Dan, it's conversations like this. The power of community and sharing our stories. Because I think when we can share our story and be vulnerable, it not only helps us, but it helps those around us share their story. And I know this is kind of NAMI 101, but when you go outside your NAMI community or family, sometimes when you say something and you share and you're vulnerable, you know the reaction is a little like, oh wow, did she just say that?
00:39:35:07 - 00:40:00:20
Erin
And yes, that was just said. And it gives people permission, you know, and it gives them, some hope I think, that they're not alone, right? That they're going through something that maybe they never had permission to share because of shame or stigma or whatever constraints that are surrounding them to kind of step into their light and really kind of share their story.
00:40:00:20 - 00:40:25:07
Erin
Because everyone has a story, everyone is dealing with something. A lot of people have been talking about the word compassion. You show so much compassion during this time. And so just, what does it really mean? What does compassion mean? And the actual Latin term for compassion is two words in Latin. And it's “com” which means “together.” In Latin, it means “together.”
00:40:25:09 - 00:41:02:16
Erin
And “paso” means “suffering.” So come together in suffering and so the fact when you share your story, you're bringing hope, but you're sharing your suffering and you're giving someone permission to share theirs. And so I think that's something so beautiful about NAMI that they recognize the power of story. And so conversations like this give me hope that we will live in a world where everyone can acknowledge each other's individual stories and see hope within each other.
00:41:02:18 - 00:41:05:21
Dan
Thank you. That's so well-put. Thank you. Doc?
00:41:05:23 - 00:41:37:04
Dr. Springer
Yeah, I like what you said. And I think that conversations like this and showing vulnerability and talking about the impact of these kinds of things, and that trauma is a human universal. This is how you scale hope, is through really thoughtful, brave conversations about how it impacts us and how we can heal. As a trauma psychologist, I deeply believe in the value of trauma-informed therapy, and I'm also hopeful because I think about my hepatitis C patients.
00:41:37:04 - 00:42:03:19
Dr. Springer
I spent the first eight years of my career as a frontline psychologist in the VA in Northern California, and I had a number of patients who had hepatitis C, and it was incurable. Until it wasn't in 2014. There was medicine developed that can cure hepatitis C, and now I have a string of patients coming in and saying, I can take this antiviral medication and actually cure hepatitis C.
00:42:03:21 - 00:42:25:01
Dr. Springer
And so I think the same thing is really becoming true of other conditions of human suffering to include post-traumatic stress. It really, you know, it doesn't need to be something that impacts people as a life sentence over the long term. Because of the new options that we have and the new treatment protocols and the way that they integrate.
00:42:25:03 - 00:42:47:03
Dr. Springer
To me, it's a triad. It's biological, it's psychological, and it's peer support. You know, that brave, that storytelling, the conversations. People who have the moral authority to say, I understand where you're coming from, I'm here to make space for you to share your story. All of that gives me hope because people can heal with the right insights and the right support.
00:42:47:05 - 00:43:10:21
Dan
They really can. This is wonderful. And Doc, I want to go back, as you talked about, I think it's the trauma. And, we spoke for a moment about trauma-informed talk therapy and trauma is not a life sentence. I think there's also something there about cortisol levels and cortisol that happens during that. There's something inside of all of that that the science and the research is starting to really move the needle on it.
00:43:10:21 - 00:43:31:23
Dan
So, you know, thank you for sharing that. And I would tell you that I look at each one of these as a masterclass for me. I love being a student. And continuous learning. So thank you all for sharing your experiences and your time and your talent with us. And as we wrap up, the biggest thing is to know that we are all in this together.
00:43:31:23 - 00:44:15:12
Dan
And if there's anything that we can do, it is our job to make sure that we do it. With that said, this has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. If you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI Helpline and find local resources, visit nami.org/help, text “helpline” to 62640 or dial 800-950-NAMI (6264). Or if you are experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use, or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.
00:44:15:17 - 00:44:19:18
Dan
I'm Dan Gillison, your host. Thank you for listening and please be well.
NAMI HelpLine is available M-F, 10 a.m. – 10 p.m. ET. Call 800-950-6264,
text “helpline” to 62640, or chat online. In a crisis, call or text 988 (24/7).
