Hope Starts With Us: Strong Black Women Need Help Too

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The stereotype of the “strong Black woman” can be a barrier to mental health care. In this episode, guest host April Simpkins talks about the pressure of living at the intersection of Blackness and womanhood, as well as initiatives from NAMI to address the Black and African Ancestry communities. She is joined by Miss Alaska USA 2018 and NAMI Ambassador Brooke Johnson and psychologist and founder of AAKOMA Project, Dr. Alfiee Breland-Noble.

You can find additional episodes of this NAMI podcast and others at nami.org/podcast.

 

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00:00:00:00 – 00:00:28:20
Dr. Breland-Noble
I want young people who come from diverse backgrounds, young people of color, to understand that people in our community struggle, too. So many of us are taught that’s a white people thing and it’s absolutely not. I want them to understand that the unique struggles that they experience, maybe as a multiracial person, as a Black person, as a Latino/Latine person, as a Native American person, as an Arab/MENA person, as an Asian American/Pacific Islander person, as somebody who might be any of those things.

00:00:28:22 – 00:00:49:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
And have a queer identity and or have a disability. That people from our communities have these challenges too. And there are people from our communities like us here today who are invested in listening to stories, who are invested in sharing our stories, and who are invested in supporting our young people.

00:00:49:07 – 00:01:15:21
April
Welcome to Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I’m your guest host today, April Simpkins. I am the coauthor of The New York Times Best Seller, By the Time You Read This: The Space Between Cheslie’s Smile and Mental Illness, and I’m also a NAMI ambassador. Now, we started this podcast because we believe that hope starts with us.

00:01:15:23 – 00:01:42:02
April
Hope starts with us talking about mental health. Hope starts with us making information accessible. Hope starts with us providing resources and practical advice. Hope starts with us sharing our stories. Hope starts with us breaking the stigma. If you or a loved one is struggling with a mental health condition and have been looking for hope, we made this podcast for you.

00:01:42:04 – 00:02:12:01
April
Hope starts with all of us. Hope is a collective. We hope that each episode, with each conversation, it pulls you into the collective so you know that you are not alone. I’m so excited to be part of this episode’s conversation and to be joined by incredible Black women leading new dynamic conversations about mental health. Joining me today are two amazing women.

00:02:12:01 – 00:02:49:19
April
We have Dr. Alfie Breland-Noble, known to the community as Dr. Alfie. She is a psychologist, scientist, author, mental health correspondent, thought leader and founder of an innovative nonprofit, the AAKOMA Project. She was recently tapped as a Melinda French Gates 2024 World Leader. She lives by the mantra that everyone deserves optimal mental health informed by love, light and science.

00:02:49:21 – 00:03:26:04
April
And we have Brooke Johnson, who I’ve known for a while, and finally in person at NAMICon this year in Denver. Brooke, performed the incredibly important MC role at NAMICon and just did a phenomenal job keeping the energy hype up. Brooke is also an actor, model and singer, and she is also Miss Alaska USA 2018. In this episode, I want to dig into mental health and wellness, especially for Black women.

00:03:26:06 – 00:04:07:10
April
The intersection of mental health and race in America is not an easy space to exist in. And you know what? As the title of this episode says, even strong Black women need help, too. I joined NAMI as an ambassador two years ago, and helped support information and resources I’ve received have helped me tremendously as I navigate life after losing my daughter Cheslie to suicide in 2022 and as a wife, the mom of six children, a senior executive at a fast growing company and an entrepreneur.

00:04:07:12 – 00:04:33:05
April
I know firsthand what it feels like to push yourself to be better, do better and achieve more in spite of managing a mental illness. So, Brooke, with your background as Miss Alaska USA 2018, is the pressure to aim for perfection something you encounter?

00:04:33:07 – 00:05:10:19
Brooke
Yes. A lot of my life I have definitely struggled with the feeling that I’m never enough. And it gets frustrating, too, when you have these thoughts on the inside and you have someone being like, yeah, but like, you know, have had all these great accomplishments, but it’s like, yeah, but there’s still this thing I haven’t done and still this thing I haven’t done, whether it be personal or career-based, it’s like, sure, I’ve done some cool things, but I still don’t feel that fullness.

00:05:10:19 – 00:05:36:07
Brooke
And I think that for me comes from like my childhood trauma of doing things and then just never feeling like I’m ever enough or I had enough validation for my hard work. It was always like, okay, good job. But I mean, there was praise, but it always just kind of felt as if it wasn’t enough to shield me from the abuse that I might have encountered.

00:05:36:12 – 00:05:58:09
Brooke
So it was very confusing to me because it’s like, okay, but you’re saying that I did a good job, you know, at my game or I did this here, but then you treat me negatively. It’s like, will I ever be enough? And I think it really got bad when I got to middle school because of, like, hormones and going through puberty and all that kind of stuff.

00:05:58:09 – 00:06:24:14
Brooke
And, you know, you’re picking the things you want to do in life and you’re choosing your career field and something would just always like feel wrong. And that got really hard for me, I think when I won Miss Alaska USA, I tell a lot of people that that job saved my life because up until that point it was like, I want to do this.

00:06:24:14 – 00:06:43:15
Brooke
And I want do this and I want to reach people and I want people to listen to me. I want people to hear me. I have something important to say. And while I was on my pageant journey, I was always trying to be somebody else because it never felt like I was ever good enough. So I would straighten my hair, I would look like this.

00:06:43:15 – 00:07:03:11
Brooke
I would get this type of dress. I would say these things in an interview. I would be Pageant Patty, because I want to be perfect, cause I want you to choose me. And the year I won was actually the first year that I was myself. I was sassy. I was fun. My hair was curly. I wore the dress that made me feel amazing.

00:07:03:11 – 00:07:35:09
Brooke
And the moment I won, literally on that stage, I was like, my gosh, being myself is enough. Finally, being myself is enough. Finally. That was when I created my program called Crowning Confidence. That was Miss Alaska USA. I went out to a ton of schools and was able to reach kids all over the country, but internationally. But it had started with– I had seen this little girl named Hayden get bullied on social media.

00:07:35:10 – 00:07:51:11
Brooke
She was this four year old and she dressed up in this Elsa costume for Halloween. And her mother had posted it and it kind of went viral. And people are talking, but little kids were calling her fat and all this kind of stuff. And I had just seen it pop up. And so I messaged her mom and I was like, hey, can I send Hayden a crown?

00:07:51:13 – 00:08:12:21
Brooke
Can I just, like, make her know that she’s a queen? Because a four year old should never feel that low, you know? And she was like, yes, I would love that. And I kind of had this idea. I was like, my gosh, wait. Why? Why can’t I do that? Because I always said I want to be the person my 13 year old self needed.

00:08:12:23 – 00:08:34:23
Brooke
So I have crowned like thousands and thousands of little girls with crowns. And of course, like based off of age range, I would go to elementary schools, to high schools, and I would talk about mental health awareness and self-esteem. But one thing that I definitely wanted to get out there, I was like, okay, I have this shiny crown on my head, I look so cool.

00:08:34:23 – 00:08:56:04
Brooke
But like I was where you were. And the first school that I actually went to was my middle school, the one that I had started having ideations and really, really bad self-esteem issues had started and it was really cool because I was like, I’ve sat in this classroom and have not wanted to be here. I have not wanted to be alive in this classroom.

00:08:56:10 – 00:09:20:02
Brooke
And so it was this really beautiful, full circle moment to give that to other kids. So even though there is pressure and of course, even after Miss Alaska, whenever I have shared my story or I talk to young children, it reminds me of like, okay, you’re here for a reason. You know, your pain is not in vain. And I try to keep remembering that.

00:09:20:04 – 00:09:47:02
April
Thank you. That was very powerful. Thank you. Dr. Alfie, with your nonprofit, The AAKOMA Project, you focus on supporting children, teens and young adults of color and navigating their mental health journey. So how do you help young people navigate these big feelings and are there coping strategies you recommend turning to in the tougher moments?

00:09:47:07 – 00:10:12:00
Dr. Breland-Noble
Yes. So April and Brooke is just such a joy to be here with both of you. I’d like to start with the last question, the coping skills, because I feel like if people don’t hear anything else, the coping skills can help. And one of the most important coping skills to me that I still use daily is mindfulness. I try to practice mindfulness and I’m very big on mindfulness meditation.

00:10:12:00 – 00:10:31:11
Dr. Breland-Noble
So what I try to share with people is mindfulness can be really a way of life. It doesn’t always have to be meditation. Mindfulness is literally just being present and there are a lot of cultures that we’ve derived this concept of mindfulness from. So I like to shout those out. And many of those cultures are cultures of the diverse people of the world.

00:10:31:11 – 00:10:48:16
Dr. Breland-Noble
So I always want to recognize that. And it was such a gift when Dr. Maya McNeilly, I love that woman. She’s a Latina, a practicing psychologist in North Carolina I worked for a long time, and that was one of the two big gifts she gave me. And so I like to share with everybody. So mindfulness and anybody can practice

00:10:48:16 – 00:11:14:13
Dr. Breland-Noble
mindfulness. It’s literally just the act of being present. So there are a bunch of apps. So there used to be this great app, I just met the founder two days ago and I was completely fangirling over her. It was called the Shine app and it was taken over by Headspace, but the Shine app was really about showing, showcasing diverse people in these contemplative, reflective types of practices, mindfulness meditation, that type of thing.

00:11:14:17 – 00:11:30:18
Dr. Breland-Noble
But there are lots of apps out there. The most famous everybody knows is Calm, everybody loves to Calm app. Headspace obviously is one, but there are a lot of them out there. My favorite was, young people can use it as well, it’s called Insight Timer, which is very sort of low-lift. It’s not pushy. They’re not trying to sell you anything in.

00:11:30:19 – 00:11:52:15
Dr. Breland-Noble
It integrates you into a community of people globally who are doing things like yoga, breathwork meditation, that type of thing. So I love mindfulness. And so I have this beautiful picture of my daughter. She turns 20 in two days. Her name is Morgan, and Morgan was maybe three. She has locks like me now, but before her hair was just like all over.

00:11:52:16 – 00:12:11:12
Dr. Breland-Noble
It was standing up everywhere. And she’s three years old and she’s doing this because she saw me do it right. And so she was meditating and so it literally can be as simple as a parent or caregiver practicing regularly and allowing your children or the young people you care for to you see you do it. It doesn’t take a lot and it’s free.

00:12:11:13 – 00:12:31:21
Dr. Breland-Noble
The only thing it costs you is your time and your attention. So that’s one. Mindfulness and meditation. I’ve been a meditator for about eight years, daily meditative for the last five, because full disclosure, I’m anxious and it just really helps me manage my anxiety. I like to say I’m one of the poster children for a generalized anxiety disorder because I worry about everything.

00:12:31:23 – 00:12:49:14
Dr. Breland-Noble
And so I try to share with people. Anybody can practice meditation. A lot of us struggle with things like anxiety, and I think if you put the two together, it can really help you. That’s one. April because I follow you, exercise, I know it was a big part of your life. So, you know, I’ve been watching because I know you all fit and I’m like,

00:12:49:14 – 00:13:08:18
Dr. Breland-Noble
I’m trying to be like her. How can do that? Exercise is another one for some young people that might be participating in sports, but it doesn’t have to be competitive. Right? It literally can just be grass and take a walk at a safe place around your house if you need to. If it’s not safe outside doing sit ups, like, just something to keep your brain and your body engaged.

00:13:08:20 – 00:13:28:14
Dr. Breland-Noble
Because what I always say as an anxious person is it’s hard to worry when your brain is focused on doing those sit ups. Right? Or going outside to do that run. It’s a little bit harder to worry because your brain is engaged in another way. You’re trying to refocus yourself. Everyone needs one person who’s safe, who they feel comfortable with to talk to.

00:13:28:16 – 00:13:43:11
Dr. Breland-Noble
These are things that I try to encourage young people. A lot of people love journaling. If you don’t want to write it down, I tell people, talk it out, right? Sit in your room, go in the bathroom, close a door so nobody hears you and quietly talk it out. You can look in the mirror and talk it out.

00:13:43:11 – 00:14:02:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
But I think the main thing is we just want young people to have a sense that every single person on this planet has struggles. No one is immune to struggles, No one. And so if we understand that we’re not alone like NAMI and one of my favorite people ever, Mr. Gillison, Dan. He said don’t call him Mr. Gillson– it’s Dan.

00:14:02:05 – 00:14:30:04
Dr. Breland-Noble
But Dan tells us, like, you’re not alone. And so people need to know that. And so it’s so beautiful to hear somebody like Brooke who’s so beautiful, who honestly reminds me of your daughter, Cheslie, to say that she struggles with things, right? April, I know you did. I know I did. So to hear and listen to other people share their stories of how they are on their journey or how they walk through a particular challenge.

00:14:30:06 – 00:14:45:06
Dr. Breland-Noble
I tell young people, read books so that you know, there are other people out there who dealt with some things that you’ve dealt with. So those are things that I share with young people. And then when I think about, you know, why AAKOMA exists and how do I encourage young people what I want them to know in addition to they’re not alone.

00:14:45:06 – 00:15:26:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
I want young people who come from diverse backgrounds, young people of color, to understand that people in our community struggle too, you know, so many of us are taught that’s a white people thing, and it’s absolutely not. And in addition to them knowing that everybody struggles, I want them to understand that the unique struggles that they experience, maybe as a multiracial person, as a Black person, as a Latino/Latine person, as a Native American person, as an Arab/MENA person as an Asian American/Pacific Islander person, that as somebody who might be any of those things and have a queer identity and or have a disability, that people from our communities have

00:15:26:05 – 00:15:58:21
Dr. Breland-Noble
these challenges too. And there are people from our communities like us here today who are invested in listening to stories, who are invested in sharing our stories, and who are invested in supporting our young people. Because dealing with things like racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, all of these things impact our mental health. And so in AAKOMA our goal is to really fill that void of allowing people to see themselves reflected in the conversations about mental health.

00:15:58:21 – 00:16:23:20
Dr. Breland-Noble
So I couldn’t be more honored to be here having this conversation about us as Black women, diverse Black women, all kinds of backgrounds, and to let people know, you know, as people say, that cliche, it’s okay to not be okay, but it’s not okay to not get help. We don’t want people suffering. Right? And so in AAKOMA and NAMI and what each of you ladies, what you do, our goal is to really shine a light and help people understand.

00:16:23:20 – 00:16:41:02
Dr. Breland-Noble
Don’t be over there in the shadows, hiding, struggling. Let somebody know. And there are people out here who love you, who want to help you and who want to be supportive and really, that’s just our mission. That, of course, it’s to let people know that they’re seen, that they’re heard and that they’re valued.

00:16:41:04 – 00:16:44:03
April
I love that. Thank you.

00:16:44:05 – 00:16:46:13
Brooke
You’re awesome.

00:16:46:15 – 00:17:05:18
Dr. Breland-Noble
Thank you! So are you! I’m just reflecting back. I just reflect it back. I am a reflection of this one young advocacy sister years ago. I never forgot it. Every time I think about it, I want to burst into tears. She was just stunningly gorgeous. We were talking at the end and I said, my God, you are so gorgeous. You must hear that all the time.

00:17:05:18 – 00:17:15:01
Dr. Breland-Noble
And she said, thank you, but Queen, I need you to understand I’m merely a reflection of you. So I share that with you. And I just was like, okay, thank you.

00:17:15:03 – 00:17:17:00
Dr. Breland-Noble

00:17:17:02 – 00:17:22:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
Thank you. I’m just reflecting back. You ladies are awesome. I receive it and I just reflect it back as well.

00:17:22:06 – 00:17:48:20
April
I’m reflecting that back as well. Same. I love what you said about the importance of, you know, parents and the adults in a young person’s life doing these things so that the children can see it in action and reflect what they see. I think that is so, so important. And I’m glad that you said that and that you made that point.

00:17:48:22 – 00:18:25:19
April
July is Bebe Moore Campbell National Minority Mental Health Month, and each year NAMI champions this awareness raising month. And Bebe Moore Campbell was a trailblazing Black woman who became a leading mental health advocate, even starting a NAMI affiliate in Los Angeles, now known as NAMI Urban Los Angeles, which is phenomenal. What does it mean to you to have this month dedicated to mental health in minority communities?

00:18:25:21 – 00:19:03:18
Brooke
There’s no other word to describe it other than it’s amazing because it’s validating one thing we are much better at, but we’ll always need to work on is understanding that somebody’s ethnical background will give someone a different perspective of how they navigate this world. And speaking as a Black woman, I can tell you, and I’m sure a lot of other women would agree, or men and women in 2020 with all the Black Lives Matter movements and George Floyd and Breonna Taylor.

00:19:03:20 – 00:19:27:04
Brooke
I mean, my mental health already going bad because of the pandemic and being stuck in the house all day. A lot of people don’t relate to the fact of how it felt. Waking up every day, seeing someone else in our community has passed violently, not even like, they passed away. It’s like, no, this is a violent crime.

00:19:27:07 – 00:19:55:01
Brooke
And just seeing that reflected, these people look like our family members. These people are our family members. These people look like our cousins, you know what I mean? So many people who are not in our community could have compassion or be like, wow, that’s really sad. But a lot of people in our community internalize that. And I can even tell you, for me, already having feelings of like not feeling good enough, it’s like, dang, this country doesn’t want me here.

00:19:55:03 – 00:20:13:22
Brooke
That’s what it felt like when someone tells you to stop talking about Black mental health or someone tells you to stop talking about Black Lives Matter movement or what have you. Anything that has to do with my background. And people are like, my gosh, you’re making it about race again, my gosh, you’re this. It’s so invalidating and it’s very frustrating.

00:20:13:22 – 00:20:40:22
Brooke
And so I feel like when we’re talking about mental health in a minority aspect, it’s so important and amazing because there are so many things that people don’t talk about in their own communities and having awareness of it and having compassion for other communities as well. It’s beautiful. I mean, I could tell you there was a magnet on my refrigerator and said, “You’re too blessed to be stressed,” growing up.

00:20:41:00 – 00:21:06:11
Brooke
It’s still there. And so that was a great thing to look at every morning while I was suffering deep inside. It was contradictory because it’s like, okay, yes, I was blessed to have a house. I have money to do extracurricular activities. I can eat. There are people who don’t have those things. But also I am struggling heavily. So what do we do?

00:21:06:11 – 00:21:31:13
Brooke
What is it? What does a 14 year old do with that message coming at you? And then you go to church and it’s like, obey your parents, this and that. And of course, like faith is so important to with mental health, but I also think there are a lot of messages that can invalidate a lot of experiences. So either way, I think it’s amazing and so important and it needs to even happen on a bigger stage.

00:21:31:13 – 00:21:34:09
Brooke
And I’m so happy we’re here having this conversation.

00:21:34:11 – 00:21:57:20
Dr. Breland-Noble
I remember Bebe Moore, Campbell, if I remember correctly, wrote a book called 72 Hour Hold, and I remember that book like I was a young adult when that came out and nobody was talking about mental health back then except for her and Terrie Williams, who wrote a book called, April you probably remember, Black Pain. I still have both of those books.

00:21:57:20 – 00:22:18:09
Dr. Breland-Noble
And I remember when I started my career, this is early 2000s, I bought a bunch of copies of both of those books, and I would give them out to people when I would go do presentations because it was so meaningful to me that somebody Black was talking about it. And then it was these two super duper powerful, beautiful, brilliant Black women.

00:22:18:11 – 00:22:39:16
Dr. Breland-Noble
You know, I really remember Terrie Williams, you know, like huge in PR, it’s just like the who’s who of anybody roster, you know, that she worked with and she was talking about what it means to be a Black woman. Just everything that you said, Brooke. The burdens that you carry that you don’t really have space to talk about. Like who are we supposed to talk to about that?

00:22:39:16 – 00:23:09:11
Dr. Breland-Noble
And 20 years ago, you definitely weren’t talking about race. It was like suck it up. And it was also, in addition to this idea, “Too blessed to be stressed,” which I understand the sentiment, like you said. But there’s something about it that just makes me uncomfortable because I think that’s one of the things that pushes people into the shadows where they feel like they can’t talk about what they’re struggling with because there’s this bad juxtaposition of if you’re stressed, then you’re not faithful enough.

00:23:09:15 – 00:23:39:14
Dr. Breland-Noble
That’s sort of the undercurrent. Now, I’m happy that there’s so many pastors and people of faith out there changing that narrative. But I think for so many of us, I’m Gen-X, for so many of us who are Gen X and older, that’s a hard narrative to push through because that’s not what we were taught. So having somebody like Terrie Williams back then saying, yeah, no, we struggling and you need to understand what the struggle looks like and to your point, but that struggle looks like different things depending on who you are.

00:23:39:14 – 00:23:57:09
Dr. Breland-Noble
And so this idea of being able to freely talk about racial stress that’s important, right? Like in Cheslie’s case, having the space to be, in her siblings, to be able to talk about what it means to be a multiracial person and feeling caught between worlds. You got to be able to have space to talk about that.

00:23:57:09 – 00:24:16:17
Dr. Breland-Noble
That is a unique experience. I watch Kamau Bell, I know he made a documentary a couple of years ago, and I hadn’t even thought about it like about multiracial kids. And what he said was, you have two parents who are creating a child where neither of them has that child’s lived experience as a multiracial person. I was like, I need to think about that.

00:24:16:18 – 00:24:37:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
I didn’t even think about that. And so just those kinds of nuances. And if nobody ever says that it’s okay to talk about that, who do you turn to to have those conversations? So the idea of Mental Health Month that is specific to those of us who are of color, that’s a place where I feel like, okay, so now we get to talk about our stuff, right?

00:24:37:05 – 00:25:00:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
And it’s real and we get to educate other people out there about what these challenges are. We get to talk about things like what you were talking about vicarious trauma. What does it mean to witness this stuff day in and day out? And I can remember early winter going into spring of 2022 when we lost five prominent Black people like, boom, boom–

00:25:00:05 – 00:25:20:13
Dr. Breland-Noble
I remember that vividly and I remember thinking I got to do something. And so even in that month between, I would say February and say like April we did an event, it was virtual. We had a lot of people join the event virtually. But our thing was we called a state of emergency and I just felt like we needed to do something.

00:25:20:13 – 00:25:43:14
Dr. Breland-Noble
So we had a lot of people with lived experiences come on. We had some celebrities on there. We’re just very fortunate to get people galvanized around this issue. But, you know, my feeling is, in addition to this month, I think you alluded to a point we should be talking about this all the time. Like it’s, you know, 24/7. And so this month gives us an opportunity to start the conversation and help educate other people intensely and intimately.

00:25:43:15 – 00:25:50:12
Dr. Breland-Noble
And then we have the opportunity to carry it like you both do carry it throughout the year because we just can’t talk about these things enough.

00:25:50:17 – 00:26:26:01
April
Hundred percent, 100% agree wholeheartedly. And I love that you said that because I have listened to my children talk about life as someone who is partially one race and partially another. When David and I got married and we have two boys who are 15 and 16, of course, their older siblings, some are in their thirties, We appreciated that our two boys had their older siblings to talk to about some of these experiences and what that life looks like.

00:26:26:01 – 00:27:00:16
April
And so, I completely agree with you. I think to your point also, Brooke, for our community, the Black community, there is such a connection between our mental health and our spiritual walk and religion that almost to even imply that you are struggling with your mental health gets translated into your spirit life isn’t right and I think that does shut down a lot of conversations that need to be had.

00:27:00:21 – 00:27:23:07
April
Like you, Dr. Alfiee I am a Gen Xer and I do not recall anyone, when I was growing up, talking about mental health. I don’t even remember it as a topic of conversation. If someone was struggling, you were told to pray about it. Go to church. You need to get your spiritual self right, shake it off. And that was it.

00:27:23:07 – 00:27:24:06
April
You move forward.

00:27:24:08 – 00:27:39:20
Dr. Breland-Noble
And remember, because we are the children of civil rights folks. You know what they told us? We don’t have it as bad as they had, right? We weren’t enslaved. Right. That’s the message that we got, right? And so there’s a part of it I get. But it’s like, what do I do with that? I don’t know what to do with that.

00:27:39:20 – 00:28:00:05
Dr. Breland-Noble
Like you right. My parents are from Mississippi, so my dad literally can tell me stories about being jailed, right, during Jim Crow era, going to segregated schools. I know that wasn’t my experience, but it’s sort of like, I don’t know how you respond to that. So you just– I would just be quiet because I felt like if I say anything else, it’s being disrespectful and, you know, we were taught children should be seen and not heard.

00:28:00:11 – 00:28:00:18
April
Not heard.

00:28:02:03 – 00:28:20:00
Dr. Breland-Noble
So there was just no where you could go with your struggles. And I happened to grow up in a predominantly white environment. I’m from Virginia Beach, Virginia, same home town– I grew up about– I like to tell people I’m like equidistance from Timberland. He grew up on one side of me, the super producer, and the other side of me was Chad

00:28:20:00 – 00:28:37:15
Dr. Breland-Noble
and Pharrell, the Neptunes. The neighborhood I grew up was like in between both of them. And we’re all the same generation. And so back then it was like, it’s not the same. But for us Black kids who are growing up in a white environment, our parents didn’t grow up in those. In fact, they grew up in all Black environments, and so they didn’t really have contacts.

00:28:37:17 – 00:29:00:01
Dr. Breland-Noble
We were struggling like being the only Black kid in the honors class–Man, I wasn’t no joke, but there was nobody to talk to about it because that wasn’t their experience. Their honors class were all Black because they were in segregated schools. So it’s not to complain about them, it’s just the context. It was hard. Like you said, it was very much a struggle and trying to figure out how do I navigate and manage this and take care of myself.

00:29:00:03 – 00:29:19:04
Dr. Breland-Noble
It was hard and we just didn’t have a lot of outlets for it. So again, for you to speak about this, you know, April, when you speak, you liberate a lot of us Gen-Xers because you’re public, you’re open, you’re beautiful, you’re bright, you’re articulate and you can talk about it in a way that lets us know, oh yeah, she know our experiences, right?

00:29:19:04 – 00:29:29:12
Dr. Breland-Noble
Pray about it. Put it on the altar, you know, get over it. You know what I mean? Like, so I’m just grateful for it because if you don’t say it, a lot of us don’t get to hear it.

00:29:29:18 – 00:29:55:00
Brooke
To that point, you telling April that, Cheslie was that to me, she gave me the empowerment to be like, let’s talk about the Black stuff. She was not afraid to put that out there, especially as a woman who was Miss USA. That was, of course, like kind of scary because, you know, of the weight of the world at the time.

00:29:55:00 – 00:30:11:16
Brooke
But every time I would see her post or see her talk about it, she made it so normal. To speak up about the uncomfortabilities about what we’re going through, that I went to a march because she went to one because I was like, if she’s doing it, why can’t I speak up and talk? I should be speaking up and talking

00:30:11:16 – 00:30:12:16
Brooke
just like her.

00:30:12:18 – 00:30:59:14
April
She was quite the activist. She really was. She really, really was. So NAMI also leads an initiative called the Community Health Equity Alliance, also known as CHEA which focuses on improving the trusted delivery of mental health care, as well as increasing access to equitable mental health care for Black and African ancestry communities. What do you think Black and African ancestry communities need in order for NAMI to achieve its goal of getting people early mental health care, getting people the best possible care, and diverting people from the justice system?

00:30:59:16 – 00:31:01:20
April
What would have helped your experience?

00:31:01:22 – 00:31:26:08
Dr. Breland-Noble
I can say briefly, I think it is a couple of things. One, it is partnership with trusted entities in communities, which I know Dan knows because he works very hard to do that. People need to see the ways in which you can, not just that you could, and to see how you operationalize care. And so if there are pastors or people of faith or faith communities where they get it and they’re not teaching people “You too blessed, to be stressed.”

00:31:26:13 – 00:31:45:16
Dr. Breland-Noble
I had this great colleague who works at George Washington University, and she’s also a pastor. Now, this is just for folks who happen to be Christian. There are many faiths. I happen to be Catholic, so my experience is a little different. But she talks about scripture and she uses scripture to talk about people in the Bible who had depression, who had anxiety.

00:31:45:18 – 00:32:03:23
Dr. Breland-Noble
There’s a community that they resonate with and like it’s jus so meaningful for them, say, oh okay. So it wasn’t– it was like Job was going through some stuff and it was just, you know, he was losing everything. He was depressed. He’s probably depressed, right? And so–or like struggling with trauma, that kind of thing. So I think it’s that piece.

00:32:03:23 – 00:32:26:00
Dr. Breland-Noble
And then I think the other piece is–and I’m a researchre at heart. I think it is also ensuring that we present people with models of what experts look like that are diverse, right? Because like you think about when we watch TV, it’s only certain people who talk about mental health or mental illness. And so, of course it’s beautiful that we would have Black people talking about Black folks mental health.

00:32:26:00 – 00:32:57:19
Dr. Breland-Noble
And guess what? If Latino folks out there who could probably talk about Black folks mental health, Black folks can talk about other communities’ mental health, like we’re expert in the concept and the ideas and those of us with lived experience in dealing with mental illness and mental health or having loved ones who had those experiences. And so it really is about showcasing and putting on display for people that you value the expertise of communities because you partner with communities and you work with trusted entities within those communities.

00:32:57:19 – 00:33:13:00
Dr. Breland-Noble
So getting Big Mama on board, you got the community because if you know, in a neighborhood, everybody had a Big Momma, mine was Mama Alice, right? And the other was Grandmother. They were like night and day, prim and proper Grandmother And you don’t say, “yeah” and “nah” and then Mama Alice, who literally was like the blueprint from Madea.

00:33:13:01 – 00:33:34:19
Dr. Breland-Noble
Had a pistol and everything. And so you got to have all of that, I think, reflected in our communities and partner with those folks. And I think those are the signals that let people know, okay, the stuff that you are selling, I might be willing to buy with selling being I want to put you over here, you know, with this provider, I want to give you access to this app. It’s that kind of thing.

00:33:34:19 – 00:34:03:03
Dr. Breland-Noble
And then in terms of juvenile justice, I think we got to be honest with ourselves about the ways in which the same symptoms in our children are viewed differently by people in my community, by providers. So we have data that says this, right? We produce some of these data at the AAKOMA project. You take two kids, you take the same set of symptoms, you take a Black kid, you take a white kid, the white child is going to be funneled for behavioral health services because they have depression or anxiety or an internalizing illness.

00:34:03:05 – 00:34:25:21
Dr. Breland-Noble
The Black child is going to be diverted toward the justice system by juvenile justice or behavior modification because that child is not seen as depressed. That’s how the scene is acting out, right? And it can be the same set of behaviors. It’s how we interpret it. So I think it is–those are the kinds of things that we know intimately in our communities and we’re looking for the NAMIs of the world who get it right.

00:34:25:21 – 00:34:34:08
Dr. Breland-Noble
The AAKOMA Projects of the world who get it right, the Crowning Confidences of the world that get it right to show and reflect back to us, oh you get me. You understand me.

00:34:34:08 – 00:35:02:08
Brooke
I love that you were talking about the faith based approach as well, because like, give credit where credit’s due, even though I have my own church hurt, my best friend actually is a minister in New Jersey. Her name is Nobi and she is constantly working to bring in more mental health into their practices and into their scripture, into everything so that it’s not this taboo topic anymore.

00:35:02:10 – 00:35:21:03
Brooke
And we’ve had a lot of conversations because I will debate her about religion, you know, and she’s very much being like, no, but like we believe mental health is a thing and we want the next generations and for this to be known and like have our faiths support us and not have it be by the Bible, as you would say.

00:35:21:05 – 00:35:50:15
Brooke
And I’m like, wow, that is amazing. I wish I went to a church growing up like that. That doesn’t make you feel bad about the problems that you’re having. But for community and Black and African ancestry, I mean, that’s just like a huge question mark to me because living in L.A., there’s– and just in the United States, a lot of people don’t know there’s hospitals that are specifically and dedicated to specific backgrounds.

00:35:50:15 – 00:36:23:04
Brooke
You know, they have like in Alaska, we have like the Alaska Native Hospital, there’s hospitals for indigenous people. And I kind of always wonder, why isn’t there like a Black and African ancestry hospital for us, not just like a community space, not a YMCA, a hospital, so that people can go there and get sickle cell treatment, because that is, you know, something that mostly our community deals with or mental health, you know, after this specific trauma.

00:36:23:04 – 00:36:46:22
Brooke
That trauma, because like I had said earlier, everyone is valid in their own experience. But just speaking as a Black woman, my experience in especially the mental health space is a lot different than a lot of my friends or colleagues that are not Black. And I myself have been very mistreated by the mental health system in Los Angeles.

00:36:47:00 – 00:37:19:00
Brooke
And looking back at it, I’m like, man, I wish there was like a Black person that was around anywhere that could have been like, no, like, don’t treat her like this because this is where this is coming from. Or just someone that could have protected me because they immediately profiled me. They just profiled me immediately, thought I was probably someone off the street and talks down to as if I was nothing.

00:37:19:02 – 00:37:45:04
Brooke
And I remember even once I was in an intensive outpatient. We’re sitting around, we’re having group therapy talking, and we’re all talking about what we do in life. My depression had gotten scary at this point, so this is why I was there to kind of get help to come back up. And I was like, yeah, actually I’m a national ambassador for NAMI, and the therapist looks at me and she’s like, “You are?”

00:37:45:06 – 00:38:08:15
Brooke
And I’m like, yeah, yeah, I’m in here too. And like, okay. And I was like, you know what NAMI is? And she’s like, of course I know what NAMI is. I’ve had to tell so many people that I’ve been profiled. I don’t know. It’s just a weird thing. I’m like, I’m a successful person who, like, really does have a level head.

00:38:08:15 – 00:38:41:00
Brooke
I just maybe I’m having issues like, I shouldn’t have to say that at all. I shouldn’t, I should just be given like grace and love and support. But that’s sadly, honestly not the case. And with another level too, that I’m a light skinned Black woman who is way closer adjacent to whiteness. So I can only imagine my darker complected chocolate skin, beautiful sisters that are getting probably treated way worse than that.

00:38:41:02 – 00:38:54:21
Brooke
So if I was treated that way, looking the way I do, my gosh, it’s a problem. And I’m like, where is our hospital? Where’s our safe space? Where’s ours? I want one. Can we have a hospital?

00:38:54:23 – 00:39:17:03
April
I love that you say that, Brooke. I remember there was a gentleman on TikTok, ironically, and I think that’s how he began his step into a more public arena. But he is a physician and he would talk about diseases and ailments and how they present in Black people or how it looks on Black skin. What does that look like?

00:39:17:05 – 00:39:47:12
April
Because so many of the books that are used to display skin and other diseases and ailments are on white skin. And so we do get misdiagnosed. And I think the same happens with mental illness. It shows up a little differently. I read a study that was done a year and a half, two years ago that depression shows up differently in Black women, gets confused as being aggressive or other things.

00:39:47:14 – 00:40:32:16
April
And so I agree. I love that we do this, that we take this time during July to talk about mental health in the minority community because it does show up different and we get treated differently, Brooke, as you were saying, you know. One thing that rings true and hits home to me, especially as the mother of four beautiful young Black men is talking to them about their mental health, because not only do we as Black women are we treated differently because of our mental health, but Black men, they need those examples, too.

00:40:32:16 – 00:40:55:15
April
They need men who step forward, who remove this let’s be tough and transfers and translates that into let’s talk about what’s going on. Let’s talk about how you’re feeling. Let’s talk about what’s going on inside and support that’s out there. So I love that we spend this time with a little more focus and it doesn’t even have to come outwardly.

00:40:55:15 – 00:41:17:05
April
But I think in our own community, if we just take this time to focus on us, how do we support us and show up for us and be compassionate to us? I think even that is such a beautiful help. So I love that we do this. Before we conclude, I’d like to ask you a question that NAMI asks every pocast guest.

00:41:18:23 – 00:41:41:18
April
The world can be a difficult place and sometimes it can be hard to hold on to hope. That’s why each episode, the last couple of minutes are dedicated to a special segment called Hold On to Hope. Dr. Alfiee, Brooke, can you share with me what helps you hold on to hope?

00:41:41:20 – 00:42:07:11
Brooke
Honestly, I think moments like this where I can be in a safe space and speak about things that I’m passionate about, but also be in a room with other amazing women like yourself that are understanding, that understand me, and knowing that this conversation can potentially help people. Because like I said, that that title I had saved my life.

00:42:07:11 – 00:42:42:10
Brooke
And I think throughout my life I’ve got ups and downs and all that kind of stuff. And even like this past month, it’s kind of been like sad, not sad, but like I’ve just felt an edge of depressed, you know? I feel like I’m in this transition period in life and I don’t feel great. I’m fine, but all of a sudden I feel so much better after this conversation and it’s like I hold on to these future conversations that I’ll keep having and I need to remind myself, it’s like, no, you’re here for a reason.

00:42:42:12 – 00:43:06:04
Brooke
You have other like minded, amazing individuals who also want to make an impact in this world. And just to keep connecting with them so that it fuels your passions and your insides to make you feel like you do have something going on and that you are enough. Just as the way you are. That’s I hold on to. You know, I’m going to hold on to this conversation for like three months.

00:43:06:06 – 00:43:21:01
Brooke
It’s like, you’re sad. Remember that–the podcast and you’re saying that it made you feel so great. I’m like, I might need to get with you, Dr. Alfiee. I need to work on my meditation. I’m so bad I can’t meditate to save my life. I try so hard.

00:43:21:01 – 00:43:44:06
Dr. Breland-Noble
Let me give you a quick trick and a tip for you. Don’t try to do it too long. Try 30 seconds and congratulate yourself for that. Seriously for 30 seconds and congratulate yourself for 30 seconds. And you just build and meditation doesn’t have to be sitting still. I had a girlfriend Dr. Deborah Budding. She’s one of my white girlfriends. She’s a psychologist who focuses on neurodiversity.

00:43:44:07 – 00:44:03:12
Dr. Breland-Noble
It’s lovely. She’s out in L.A. She taught me meditation doesn’t have to be sitting. You can be running. You can–you konw what I mean, you could be cooking. That’s why I like mindfulness, because it’s just focusing on what you’re doing in the moment that can be your meditation. So I hope you will always encourage yourself that you already do it.

00:44:03:12 – 00:44:18:11
Dr. Breland-Noble
You might just not think of it as mindfulness and or meditation. So give it a little bit, 30 seconds a day. Do that for a while and then say okay now, I’m gonna go for a minute. Now go for a minute and a half. Just give yourself a little increments and I promise you, you can do it. You can totally do it.

00:44:18:11 – 00:44:21:18
Dr. Breland-Noble
But with that said, anytime I can be helpful, call on me.

00:44:21:19 – 00:44:24:08
Brooke
Yes, girl, We’re friends now.

00:44:24:09 – 00:44:45:23
Dr. Breland-Noble
Yes! Besties! Besties! The only thing I would add in terms of this idea of what gives me hope, what gives me hope is there’s this thing that I always say. I came up with it a long time ago when I was meditating, and it is may you proudly and easily share your light with everyone you encounter, knowing the goodness of the universe in every moment.

00:44:45:23 – 00:45:03:01
Dr. Breland-Noble
And that’s it. And I try to reflect that back to myself. Because even when stuff is hard, the universe is good. The people might be cutting up. But universe, I think at its core, I’m not even glass half full. I am the person who’s like, I’m glad there’s something in the glass that I can drink. I mean, I’m just glad it’s there.

00:45:03:03 – 00:45:19:22
Dr. Breland-Noble
So for me, that’s what it is. And if I may, I would love to hear if you would share with us, April, what gives you hope, because I know you’re the host, but I really would love it because you inspire me. You really do inspire me with your tenacity and your focus and your beauty. And you’re just loving this.

00:45:19:22 – 00:45:22:18
Dr. Breland-Noble
If I may, I would love to hear what you, what you think.

00:45:23:00 – 00:45:45:07
April
One of the things that helps me hold on to hope, to Brooke’s point is this, that we are now talking about mental health and mental wellness out loud in public, in open spaces where we can be seen and heard, which by living this way, by living out loud, we are showing our young people that you are not alone.

00:45:45:09 – 00:46:13:09
April
When we can look at someone and say, We’re able to do this because we are taking care of ourselves, we’re able to do this because we are mindfully meditating and let them hear that and see that and be able to mirror that. That is what gives me hope. Thank you. I love that is what gives me hope. So thank you so much for sharing your stories with me today.

00:46:13:09 – 00:46:50:13
April
And I take a lot of hope from knowing that they are voices like each of yours out there making it possible for conversations around mental health to shift and grow and become more open. This has been Hope Starts With Us, a podcast by NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, to learn more about NAMI Community Health Equity Alliance head to see chea.namie.org. That’s chea.namie.org.

00:46:50:14 – 00:47:36:22
April
If you are looking for mental health resources, you are not alone. To connect with the NAMI helpline and find local resources, visit nami.org/help or text helpline to 62640 or you can dial 800-950-NAMI (or 6264). Or if you’re experiencing an immediate suicide, substance use or mental health crisis, please call or text 988 to speak with a trained support specialist or visit 988lifeline.org.

00:47:37:00 – 00:47:41:14
April
I’m April Simpkins. Thanks for listening and be well.

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